Hell for non-followers of Christ?

[macca]

What is the point of that post?

Accepting Jesus is accepting He walked the earth, was God's Son, died for our sins... and yes following through and living for God.
But that isn't the question here, it's can we lose our salvation. That's like asking if we can lose what Jesus did for us, actually that is what that means.

"Can we lose our salvation?" - "Can we lose Jesus' sacrifice?"

NO, but you can die in sin. <--- answer.

which of your sins weren't dealt with at the cross?
future sins? Then we are in deep trouble if that is so.

 

[TouchTestimony]

what i make of it at the end of the day is that if you've led a righteous life and are condemned on the single count of being a 'non believer' as opposed to living a life of sin and attaining atonement when you hit the bucket because you 'believe'; you've been dealt an unfair hand.

 

[Miss Elly]

Do followers of other religions, people who do not believe in or follow Christ, get passage into heaven as well, or are they destined for hell?

Sorry, but this is a stupid question. If it didn't matter, why did God Almighty come to earth as a baby and die on the cross as a sacrifice for sins? If all are going to heaven, why did he bother? No, they are destined for hell unless christians go into all the world and preach the gospel as Christ commanded us.:clock:

Do you base this on scripture?

Jesus used parables all of the time......this sounds like a modern day parable to me. It's an explanation so the unsaved persons minds can comprehend a little better.

That is a very good answer to the actual question.
I think I can support that further.

The Jews believed gentiles to be Judged by the Noahitic(spelled various ways) covenant.

From Wikipedia:
Unless you are Born of a bonafide Jewish woman you were never required to keep any law but this.

But since very few even know about that covenant then I do think
those who never heard of Gods gift will be judged according to Romans 2:14-16 as sort of a default.There was no hell in the old testament.
Only the grave or Sheol.


BTW:The discussions between RJ and Fraction were getting good and really got me thinking.It's refreshing to see Christians search for answers and sharpen each other rather than quote Doctrines.

Just because it was not in the old testament doesn't mean there wasn't a place of torment with flames. Jesus said the rich man died and went to hell and he wanted water for he was tormented in the flame.

The only standard for a sinner today is "do you know Christ?" Way back when, the whole world was preached to, so how is it God's fault that they did not like to retain God in their knowledge and worshiped the creation other than the creator? If someone wants to know the true God, God is able to reveal himself to them. I do believe however, that the sinners who have been preached over and over to repent and do not do so, will suffer greater damnation.

 

[Wilvan]

There is really no such thing as a 'burning hell' where the wicked humans will be burn forever, this idea is totally false. The word "Hell" or "Hades" in the English Bible is often confused with the Lake of Fire, but the truth is it really means the graves, or tomb, or literal hole in the ground for burial.

When we die, we don't immediately go to heaven or the "burning hell" as commonly believed, but unconscious as in a deep sleep. The Bible reveals a future resurrection of all humans to face God on Judgment Day. The wicked humans will be cast into the Lake of Fire and they will die a second death. Only the fallen angels will be tormented in the lake because they were created immortal.

 

[B-A-C]

There is really no such thing as a 'burning hell' where the wicked humans will be burn forever, this idea is totally false. The word "Hell" or "Hades" in the English Bible is often confused with the Lake of Fire, but the truth is it really means the graves, or tomb, or literal hole in the ground for burial.

When we die, we don't immediately go to heaven or the "burning hell" as commonly believed, but unconscious as in a deep sleep. The Bible reveals a future resurrection of all humans to face God on Judgment Day. The wicked humans will be cast into the Lake of Fire and they will die a second death. Only the fallen angels will be tormented in the lake because they were created immortal.

There is a lot of misunderstanding here. The burning does indeed say Hell is a place of torment, gnashing of teeth, the rich man Lazarus saw across the chasm was in severe pain from flames. This wasn't the lake of fire. But even if all of this was right, we know that Hell is eventually cast into the Lake of fire anyway. So either way, non believers will burn for eternity.

Does only the soul of believers live eternally? Or is the souls of unbelievers eternal as well? Does hell really exist, or do unbelievers "just fade away". Is there eternal punishment as well as eternal life?

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Mat 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Mat 18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.
Luk 3:9 "Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

If there truly is no punishment for sin... then why do I even need to be saved?

Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Maybe there really is a hell, a place where your soul will be tormented eternally?

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Luk 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

This is the argument of most non-believers I know. Why get saved? Why do I need a savior? Ok, so I sin, so what? After this life I just return to dust, I might as well live it up, have as much fun as possible and not worry about a penalty that will never happen.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hell.....

Everyone should know if you do a little study that Jesus said this.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Now we SHOULD all know that Hell is the Greek Word Gehenna, that is the Word Jesus used, and everyone should know, or have known that Jesus was really referring to some burning trash pile. In the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) or something, something like that.

So, relax........ There is no eternal Hell, or eternal punishment, do as you please, it's all good. it's just a trash pile Jesus was referring to where the fire is never quenched.

So, you can just be at ease...... As long as that trash pile he referred to is still burning.

It is still burning right?

oh my........

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Wilvan]

The words Hell and Hades simply mean the GRAVE or TOMB, not eternal torment for man. The other words like "Gehenna" is a place outside of Jerusalem where garbage is burned. It is mentioned in the Bible to symbolize the fire in the Lake of Fire; and "Tartaroo" found only once in the Bible in 2Peter 2:4, is the place where the fallen angels are imprisoned until Judgment Day. I believe it is another name for the Bottomless Pit.

The "Lake of Fire" is literal. This is where the wicked humans will be thrown in to die a second and final death after Judgment! God in all his mercy does not want any one to suffer the fate awaiting the fallen angels, that's why we are created mortal in the first place! Only Satan and the fallen angels will be thrown into the Lake and be tormented for ages, the Bible is silent on what will happen to them next.

The human "soul" is not eternal, God says so! He warned Adam and Eve about it but they believed instead Satan's lie that they will not surely die. Roman 6:23 says the wages of sin is death... meaning all men are subject to the 2nd death in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment, thankfully this is no longer the case since Jesus paid for our sins by his sacrifice.

Regarding Lazarus in Luke 16:24-25 Jesus is teaching about materialism and money. He is drawing upon a popular Jewish folk tale that had roots in Egypt about a rich man and poor man whose lots after death are completely reversed. The story of Abraham and Lazarus is a parable to convey a spiritual truth. He is not teaching that humans go to heaven or "hell" immediately after death. It does not make sense that people received their reward or punishment immediately even before the Great White Throne Judgment!

When it comes to dying, the Scriptures say the dead knows nothing, they are unconscious until the resurrection. (Ecclesiates 9:5-6) True Christians will be in the first resurrection at the 2nd coming of Christ and they will rule with him on earth for 1000 yrs. Yes, that is the purpose of the Church, we are the 'called-out ones' who were chosen, in the beginning of time, to become kings and priests in the Millennial rule of Christ on earth. Rev 1:6, 5:10, 20:4-6.

After the Millennium is over comes the 2nd resurrection of the rest of humans to face God on the Great White Throne Judgment. Those given eternal life will live on in the New Earth... a paradise without end. God will wipe away their tears... there's no more pain, or sorrow, or death, as these are all things of the past.

In Rev 20:14... it says finally death and HELL (GRAVES) were cast into the Lake of Fire, meaning after the saved humans are given eternal life, there is no more death and no more graves, it is the end of mortality and physical time, it is the beginning of eternity!

Well, this is how I understood these subjects based on my own research. I could be wrong so I'm ready to change my views when there's a better explanation.

 

[Brother Mike]

Fire Hell.

The words Hell and Hades simply mean the GRAVE or TOMB, not eternal torment for man. The other words like "Gehenna" is a place outside of Jerusalem where garbage is burned.

WE will go slow, on thing at a time. First, the Word corrects us, and we don't dismiss anything. Also You did not read my post above. So...


So....................

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If Jesus was talking about some trash pit, and he said the fire is never quenched, then that same trash pit must still be burning somewhere.

Since Jesus never lied:
Do you know the location of that trash pile that has burning for about 2,000+ years?

When it comes to dying, the Scriptures say the dead knows nothing, they are unconscious until the resurrection. (Ecc 9:5-6)

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

You added unconscious and until resurrection here in Ecc, Please don't add to the word, refer to the actual scripture.

The dead can not know, learn, hate, do anything. They have no more reward coming, and have nothing left that is done UNDER THE SUN.

Once you are dead, then there is no going back here to earth.
You missed the whole context of this scripture and added things to make it fit what you want it to say.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Abraham and the rich man:

It does not make sense that people received their reward or punishment immediately even before the Great White Throne Judgment!

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

You don't believe on Jesus, you are already Damned. Jesus said that.

How many in Jail now awaiting trial before any guilty verdict is reached?

The story of Abraham and Lazarus is a parable to convey a spiritual truth. He is not teaching that humans go to heaven or "hell" immediately after death.

Jesus was telling some folk tale from Egypt, right after he warned about Hell where the fire is never quenched?

And Jesus Lied to just what? Scare us? Really?

Jesus is describing Hell, a place of torment, He never said this is a Parable, or a trash pile. Why would he deceive us to believe there was a place of torment? Why like all the other parables did he not take time to explain that he was just joking about Hell, but trying to make a point about the rich man?

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

The "Lake of Fire" is literal. This is where the wicked humans will be thrown in to die a second and final death after Judgment! God in all his mercy does not want any one to suffer the fate awaiting the fallen angels, that's why we are created mortal in the first place! Only Satan and the fallen angels will be thrown into the Lake and be tormented for ages, the Bible is silent on what will happen to them next.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The False Prophet is human, Angels (devils) are spirits. We are a spirit!!!! You don't kill spirits, you put them somewhere, as God is also a Spirit and we are created in His image.

Pro 18:14 The spirit of a man will sustain his infirmity; but a wounded spirit who can bear?
Pro 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit (pneuma) and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

What Happens to spirits cast in the Lake of fire??????????

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Wilvan]

The AC/Beast and the False Prophet are humans who are possessed by fallen angels. When the Biblical prophecy said they were thrown into the Lake of Fire immediately when Jesus Christ returns, it means the demons who possessed these 2 leaders went into the lake, not the humans. If they were humans they would have died and subject to resurrection later on the Great White Throne Judgment.

The Beast is really Apollyon (Rev 9:11) who will possess the body of the human EU Leader. He and the demon who inhabits the church leader identified only as the False Prophet, are to be captured alive and thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of the Great Trib.; even after a thousand years have passed they are still there being tormented. At the end of the Millennium Satan joined them in the lake!

The wicked humans are not subject to torment in the Lake of Fire because the Bible says those whose names are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire and they will DIE a second death! It is hard for some Christians to accept this truth, they cry out for eternal torment for the wicked! They couldn't understand why God does not want any human to suffer the fate of the fallen angels.

Even after the resurrection, humans are still mortal until God bestowed upon them the gift of eternal life. This was the plan of God since the beginning, he is full of mercy and wisdom. Those who refused to obey God's Law and live his way of life will not receive immortality, they will just die a second death and be gone forever!

 

[TouchTestimony]

Sorry, but this is a stupid question. If it didn't matter, why did God Almighty come to earth as a baby and die on the cross as a sacrifice for sins? If all are going to heaven, why did he bother? No, they are destined for hell unless christians go into all the world and preach the gospel as Christ commanded us.:clock:



Jesus used parables all of the time......this sounds like a modern day parable to me. It's an explanation so the unsaved persons minds can comprehend a little better.



Just because it was not in the old testament doesn't mean there wasn't a place of torment with flames. Jesus said the rich man died and went to hell and he wanted water for he was tormented in the flame.

The only standard for a sinner today is "do you know Christ?" Way back when, the whole world was preached to, so how is it God's fault that they did not like to retain God in their knowledge and worshiped the creation other than the creator? If someone wants to know the true God, God is able to reveal himself to them. I do believe however, that the sinners who have been preached over and over to repent and do not do so, will suffer greater damnation.

and there you go answering 'stupid questions'

 

[jiggyfly]

Everyone should know if you do a little study that Jesus said this.

Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Now we SHOULD all know that Hell is the Greek Word Gehenna, that is the Word Jesus used, and everyone should know, or have known that Jesus was really referring to some burning trash pile. In the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) or something, something like that.

So, relax........ There is no eternal Hell, or eternal punishment, do as you please, it's all good. it's just a trash pile Jesus was referring to where the fire is never quenched.

So, you can just be at ease...... As long as that trash pile he referred to is still burning.

It is still burning right?

oh my........

Jesus Is Lord.

Yep and Jonah is still in the belly of that fish right? LOL.

 

[Brother Mike]

Eternal Hell.

Wilvan

The wicked humans are not subject to torment in the Lake of Fire because the Bible says those whose names are not found in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire and they will DIE a second death! It is hard for some Christians to accept this truth, they cry out for eternal torment for the wicked! They couldn't understand why God does not want any human to suffer the fate of the fallen angels.

Wilvan, when I see something in the Word of God, I just believe it. I also compare many scriptures to see if there are holes in what I believe. I do not go outside of the Word in an attempt for "Other" things to explain away God's Word. Evolutionist do that.

When Jesus, our Lord and Savior says.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

That is enough for me. There is everlasting Punishment of some kind, a punishment that does not end.

If things get questioned I just might look into the Greek. aiōnios (Everlasting) in my 3 Greek dictionaries Means forever in all 3.

So, if there is really no everlasting Punishment, then Jesus must have lied, man must have changed his words somewhere in history, or I just can't read.

God is more than able to keep his Word intact, man can not change it, though they have tried, and Jesus never lied or said anything to confuse anyone that had ears to hear. I can also read somewhat.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Here I have another scripture witness to back what Jesus said.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

People face an everlasting fire that was originally made for the devil and his angles. It's the same place where the fire does not go out. Jesus warned that people do not just get thrown in and Poof!! they are gone. He said your are cursed into the everlasting fire.

You have ignored my many scriptures about man being a spirit also, and you claim to want to learn, but your not doing a very good Job of showing it. When scripture contradict what we believe, the scriptures change us, not us change them, and to just ignore them is to our own hurt.

=================================================

Jiggyfly:

Yep and Jonah is still in the belly of that fish right? LOL.

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. What would Jesus and Jonah possibly want to go to the Heart of the Earth for? What could even be there but hot magma and molten rock?

==========================================
TouchTestimony and Miss Elly

Sorry, but this is a stupid question.
and there you go answering 'stupid questions'

I already asked one person to be more kind and not personally attack in a different thread. I don't mind scriptures, and pinning someone's doctrine to the wall, or even some sarcasm.

I will start getting involved in a more direct way apart from just warning those who wish to attack someones standing with God, or their intelligence, or any other type of personal attack.

I was already aware of what Miss Elly typed but just waited, and here comes the other fish to take the bait. This helps me round up the fish that need watched more. Consider this a friendly warning.
I am watching.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[judge not]

Konquistador, your reasoning is out of kilter.
Yes we should love all others regardless.
But Jesus did say "6*Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
Jn 14:6
it is through the Blood of Jesus we have our sins washed away.
No other way to God's heaven.
No matter how we try to imagine that God will save all, those who reject jesus's offer will not be foung righteous.

what about all the millions of children who have never even heard the name of Jesus-are they condemmned to eternal punishment without even a chance to accept or not-and those thousands of years before christ-are they victims of eternal punishment-was that God's plan?

 

[jiggyfly]

Bro. Mike, not sure I understand your question and how it relates to my previous post. Can you elaborate some?

 

[Brother Mike]

The Fire.

Jiggyfly:

Bro. Mike, not sure I understand your question and how it relates to my previous post. Can you elaborate some?

My attempts to dodge have failed.

Just as Jonah is not longer in the Fish, so is the fire that supposedly Jesus Referred to that is never Quenched has most definitely burned out.

Jonah must not just have been in only a fish, and Jesus certainly was not speaking about some trash heap in the Valley of Himmon.

Jiggyfly:

No, I am not saying that there is no such thing as hell, I am saying that the punishment for sin is death not unending torment or separation from Christ.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

GNB
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

AMP
2Th 1:9 Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

There seem to be some scriptures in the way here.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Thayer: to give sentence for punishment.

If we where not spirits, created in the image of God who Jesus said is a spirit, then I am all for our mortal selves to be just snuffed out, with no everlasting suffer endured. However, seeing we are spirits just as the devil and his angles are spirits and await everlasting punishment, I am not taking any chances......

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

Jiggyfly:


My attempts to dodge have failed.

Just as Jonah is not longer in the Fish, so is the fire that supposedly Jesus Referred to that is never Quenched has most definitely burned out.

Jonah must not just have been in only a fish, and Jesus certainly was not speaking about some trash heap in the Valley of Himmon.

Jiggyfly:


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

GNB
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from his glorious might,

AMP
2Th 1:9 Such people will pay the penalty and suffer the punishment of everlasting ruin (destruction and perdition) and eternal exclusion and banishment from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

There seem to be some scriptures in the way here.

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Thayer: to give sentence for punishment.

If we where not spirits, created in the image of God who Jesus said is a spirit, then I am all for our mortal selves to be just snuffed out, with no everlasting suffer endured. However, seeing we are spirits just as the devil and his angles are spirits and await everlasting punishment, I am not taking any chances......

Jesus Is Lord.

A word study on the Hebrew words alam, olam, and Greek words aion, aionios are a big help in understanding the errant translations of many of the English bibles concerning the topic.

The same words were used to describe the old covenant and Jonah's time in the fish's belly as the punishment in hell.

My personal study has revealed that olam and aion have as much to do with quality as they do with quantity and time. At any rate if these words mean for ever as they have been translated then there is a very obvious conflict in the scriptures making the scriptures themselves errant and unreliable. I don't think that anyone here thinks that of the scriptures so the problem must be with the English translations and our understanding.

 

[Miss Elly]

1 Cor 13 seems to be mostly about love. Also about faith and hope later in the chapter. I don't see how it talks about instantly being perfected in the presence of God.

I do believe that we are perfected in spirit when we accept Jesus Christ as out savior though. That isn't what 1Cor 13 is about though. So I don't understand what you're saying when you talk about it in the way that you did.

Jesus Christ was resurrected to complete the prophecy. Those who Jesus Christ resurrected after were His actions alone, and only He knows what He did so at that moment. We will of course all be resurrected, and then raptured. Just like God promises in revelation.

Jesus Christ is God in human form, therefor he is God. The alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. This simply means that God created the earth in Genesis, and will end it in Revelation. The bible is the book from the beginning to the end. This has nothing to do with what I have said, or the bodily death of anyone. It has everything to do with the creation of everything, and everything to do with believers names written in the book of life on judgement day. Creation is the beginning, judgement day is the end.

I agree that the moment you are saved you are joined with the Holy Spirit. Which is in fact the direct link to God. Spiritually you belong to Him. It's all linked together.

Ever get surgery before? You get the gas or the IV, and the second you close your eyes you open them again and the surgery is over. It's like nothing has happened and no time has passed.

This is the kind of sleep I am talking about. So when people die their bodily death, their spirits are sleeping and waiting for revelation. When believers die their bodily death, they immediately wake up as if no time has passed at all. They are resurrected, and raptured along with the believers on earth. They are then judged separated by the book of life from non believers. Then they enter the kingdom of God.

Why would God bring us to heaven, then resurrect us on earth, only to just bring us back again instantly? Why is everyone judged on judgement day including the resurrected? The bible is a very logical book, and should be looked at logically with faith. At least that is how I look at it.

My opinions aren't strictly pointed out in the bible, I have gathered my ideas and feelings from putting research together to find what makes sense to me.

I believe the body sleeps (dies), but the soul is conscious somewhere, either with Jesus waiting for their bodies to be resurrected and the soul that is without christ goes to a place of torment, then ressurrected to be cast into the lake of fire. Examples: The rich man in hell after he died, and the souls of the righteous dead under the altar in the book of Revelation asking God when He was going to avenge their blood. If you need scriptures, I can provide them for you. This makes perfect sense to me, although it is a mystery. God bless.

 

[Brother Mike]

I understand..

Well, I certainly understand the argument and people's Ideas of what everlasting means in Greek and Hebrew. As you know, this have been discussed many, many times in past discussions.


Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Num 10:8 And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.


Each case of these terms being ‛ôlâm (perpetual, everlasting) Come to a end by the context that defines it in scripture.

"While you work here, you will Forever paint these balls red, until you quit, or get fired."

The forever part had a limit put on it, meaning that your doing nothing else at this job, but paint those balls red UNTIL YOU LEAVE THE JOB. Otherwise, you keep painting.

being Abraham's seed, that covenant is still in effect as seed is coming into the Kingdom, established and new and better promises. Once the seed stops, the Covenant stops.

Rainbow:
every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Once there is no more flesh on the earth, it will nullify the covenant of the rainbow as being ineffective.

When a condition is not set, or a end is not added into the context of the Passage, then that word Perpetual, or everlasting does not change. It keeps Going.

Phm 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever; aiōnios


While certainly Onesimus is not alive today, or those to receive him are, the statement was that he is to be received at that time if he came back while those conditions existed.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

To invalidate this statement One or some of the conditions must cease to exist.
To do that, those cast into this everlasting fire, must also have a end, if not, then the word aiōnios takes Priority.This no longer becomes a discussion of Hell being real, it becomes a discussion of what is man, and how is man made?

If man is a spirit, created in the image of God, and as an angel, then the realities of eternal Hell become very real.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God did not "Spare" his own angels, casting them into the Lake of fire for eternity, who where disobedient. (Rev 20:10) (2Pet 2:4)
The whole context is that we will not also be spared.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. aiōnios

and we can have everlasting life, without end.
Then one can very safely assume that Hell is real, and it is punishment, everlasting.

To make any of these word to not mean everlasting, would be to say there is no everlasting life with God.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[jiggyfly]

Well, I certainly understand the argument and people's Ideas of what everlasting means in Greek and Hebrew. As you know, this have been discussed many, many times in past discussions.


Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Num 10:8 And the sons of Aaron, the priests, shall blow with the trumpets; and they shall be to you for an ordinance for ever throughout your generations.


Each case of these terms being ‛ôlâm (perpetual, everlasting) Come to a end by the context that defines it in scripture.

"While you work here, you will Forever paint these balls red, until you quit, or get fired."

The forever part had a limit put on it, meaning that your doing nothing else at this job, but paint those balls red UNTIL YOU LEAVE THE JOB. Otherwise, you keep painting.

being Abraham's seed, that covenant is still in effect as seed is coming into the Kingdom, established and new and better promises. Once the seed stops, the Covenant stops.

Rainbow:
every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

Once there is no more flesh on the earth, it will nullify the covenant of the rainbow as being ineffective.

When a condition is not set, or a end is not added into the context of the Passage, then that word Perpetual, or everlasting does not change. It keeps Going.

Phm 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever; aiōnios


While certainly Onesimus is not alive today, or those to receive him are, the statement was that he is to be received at that time if he came back while those conditions existed.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

To invalidate this statement One or some of the conditions must cease to exist.
To do that, those cast into this everlasting fire, must also have a end, if not, then the word aiōnios takes Priority.This no longer becomes a discussion of Hell being real, it becomes a discussion of what is man, and how is man made?

If man is a spirit, created in the image of God, and as an angel, then the realities of eternal Hell become very real.

Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

God did not "Spare" his own angels, casting them into the Lake of fire for eternity, who where disobedient. (Rev 20:10) (2Pet 2:4)
The whole context is that we will not also be spared.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. aiōnios

and we can have everlasting life, without end.
Then one can very safely assume that Hell is real, and it is punishment, everlasting.

To make any of these word to not mean everlasting, would be to say there is no everlasting life with God.

Jesus Is Lord.

I'm a little disappointed that you didn't do a word study Mike, if yopu had we could have a reason to continue.

 

[Brother Mike]

Backing out are we?

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (aiōnios) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting (aiōnios) life.


Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting (aiōnios) life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If a Word study removes the meaning of (aiōnios) to not mean forever and perpetual, fire. That same word study would also remove Forever and perpetual life.

I'm a little disappointed that you didn't do a word study Mike, if yopu had we could have a reason to continue.

You may back out gracefully, I understand. :embarasse

Jesus Is Lord.