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Hell for non-followers of Christ?

This whole discussion seems a little pointless to me. Arguing semantics I think.

Is hell eternal? maybe I don't know.
I do know that it gets thrown into the lake of fire eventually. (Rev 20:14)

Maybe unbelievers go to hell first. Ok, I can believe that. (Luk 16:22-23)
Maybe they get thrown directly into the Lake of fire. (Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:15)

Either way, I'm not sure it makes much difference.

Whats the difference between jail and prison? One is temporary, the other is permanent. Jail is often where criminals are held until a hearing or a judgement.

I know someday there will be a judgement for all non-believers.

So, what difference does it make if I burn for a while in a temporary place, if eventually I'm going to get thrown into a place where I'll burn permanently? Either way it's not going to be pleasant. (an understatement).

So I think I'll just do my part to make sure I don't end up in either place.

Yes, I agree that it is a very theoretical topic, but the point was not if people are tourtured in Hell or the Lake of Fire. The question was (if I remember correctly) will God punish people for eternity or not?

It does seem to me that something is missing in our understanding in this area. Either we don't understand what the Bible means by eternity or it may be that we misunderstand what it applies to?
For example, just because Hell itself is eternal, does not mean that people will remain there for eternity. And eternal punishment may not mean eternal torture. It could be some other form of punishment like banishment or reduced privileges.
 
Yes, I agree that it is a very theoretical topic, but the point was not if people are tourtured in Hell or the Lake of Fire. The question was (if I remember correctly) will God punish people for eternity or not?

It does seem to me that something is missing in our understanding in this area. Either we don't understand what the Bible means by eternity or it may be that we misunderstand what it applies to?
For example, just because Hell itself is eternal, does not mean that people will remain there for eternity. And eternal punishment may not mean eternal torture. It could be some other form of punishment like banishment or reduced privileges.

Good post and questions, just because some English translations say aion and aionios mean for ever or everlasting doesn't mean that it does.

A deeper study reveals much more about their meaning and challenges then many of the doctrines concerning hell to which conflict with the scriptures.
 
deeper study.

A deeper study reveals much more about their meaning and challenges then many of the doctrines concerning hell to which conflict with the scriptures.
As I said, we mess with aionios that we mess with eternal life in God, as that invalidates any chance of living forever with the father. It's the same word, and it is clear on what it means. The Strongs, Thayer are more than enough, without finding other ways to change the meaning.

I can prove anything true if I dig deep enough, twist some compound Greek and Hebrew around, ignore the context of what is actually said "The fire is Quenched NOT" being pretty clear of the concept.

However, if this DEEP study removes eternal Punishment, we need to get it to those folks burning right now, I am sure they would like a way out.

Jesus Is Lord.
 
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I can prove anything true if I dig deep enough, twist some compound Greek and Hebrew around, ignore the context of what is actually said "The fire is Quenched NOT" being pretty clear of the concept.
Your right,the question is which came first the garbage dump or the Greek concept of hell.The Jews never believed that scripture focused on the afterlife but primarily on this life.Even today if you go to a Jewish site you will see that they all are waiting for Tikkun olam(this is a Hebrew phrase that means "repairing the world." In Judaism, the concept of tikkun olam originated in the early rabbinic period)..

Our concept of heaven and hell are foreign to most modern sects of Judaism and came from the strong Greek influences of philosophy mixed with mythology and Judaised in the Septuagint.The concept of heaven,hell and purgatory also crept in the church after about 150 ad.
The entire old testament was focused on life on this planet and punishment meant death.
"The fire is not quenched" could be said of many things such as lust or greed.I don't see it as implying being tortured for eternity.
Also my God is an all consuming fire so hopefully we will all get burned for eternity.
 
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Fire.

"The fire is not quenched" could be said of many things such as lust or greed.I don't see it as implying being tortured for eternity.
Also my God is an all consuming fire so hopefully we will all get burned for eternity.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

aiōnios
Thayer Definition, Strongs, NASEC. aiōnios; from G165; agelong, eternal: - eternal (66), eternity (1), forever (1). perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Mat 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mar 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Pur, was used 74 times, not one time did it mean lust, to burn with passion. The concept is in the sentence structure. Wailing and gnashing of teeth sounds like extreme pain to me, not some lust, not some Puff of smoke and your gone.......

Twisting concepts, changing words just because I can't fathom God would ever judge and put someone in eternal punishment. It's shaky understanding at best.

Jesus Is Lord.
 
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Hmm,how do they get in with no beginning and no end?
It seems to me they would have had to be there already.
If there is an eternal punishment then it can't start or end.It must have always been.
 
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No, end No beginning.

Hmm,how do they get in with no beginning and no end?
It seems to me they would have had to be there already.
If there is an eternal punishment then it can't start or end.It must have always been.
Call them up, and ask them. I also gave the Strongs, and Nasec.
Hell was made for Satan, and his bunch. They are spirits, we are spirits, we don't just get burned up, or snuffed out. Just as we are in the image and likeness of God, who is also a spirit.

aiōnios means without end, everlasting. The Strongs used perpetual.

Google it, any Greek explanation from someone not trying to prove a doctrine will tell you what the word means. Doctrine gets in the way of understanding.

Aionios by itself is forever, non stop. That is until something stops it.
This is a correct understanding of the Word.


Aionios life..................... Eternal life, everlasting life. Life does not stop Aionios. So, it keeps going. If Aionios stopped on it's own, then we are in sorry shape, and preaching eternal life with God is a lie.


While you work here, you will Aionios (Forever) have to punch your time clock.

Punching the time clock at work is Aionios and last forever while you work there. There are many bible examples of this. So, it's clear if we look at what is written in the context it is written.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting (Aionios) covenant,

Our covenant with God will never end...........He will keep his word to us forever. He will never kick us out of Heaven, nor leave us.

Phm 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever (Aionios);

They are not still waiting on Onesimus today. They had instructions to Always receive him, while that condition could be met.

Mat 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment (Aionios) : but the righteous into life eternal (Aionios).

If there is no Everlasting punishment, then there is no everlasting life. We don't just pick what we like out of God's word and discard the rest.

Jesus Is Lord.
 
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Call them up, and ask them. I also gave the Strongs, and Nasec.
Hell was made for Satan, and his bunch. They are spirits, we are spirits, we don't just get burned up, or snuffed out. Just as we are in the image and likeness of God, who is also a spirit.

aiōnios means without end, everlasting. The Strongs used perpetual.

Google it, any Greek explanation from someone not trying to prove a doctrine will tell you what the word means. Doctrine gets in the way of understanding.

Aionios by itself is forever, non stop. That is until something stops it.
This is a correct understanding of the Word.


Aionios life..................... Eternal life, everlasting life. Life does not stop Aionios. So, it keeps going. If Aionios stopped on it's own, then we are in sorry shape, and preaching eternal life with God is a lie.


While you work here, you will Aionios (Forever) have to punch your time clock.

Punching the time clock at work is Aionios and last forever while you work there. There are many bible examples of this. So, it's clear if we look at what is written in the context it is written.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting (Aionios) covenant,

Our covenant with God will never end...........He will keep his word to us forever. He will never kick us out of Heaven, nor leave us.

Phm 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever (Aionios);

They are not still waiting on Onesimus today. They had instructions to Always receive him, while that condition could be met.

Mat 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment (Aionios) : but the righteous into life eternal (Aionios).

If there is no Everlasting punishment, then there is no everlasting life. We don't just pick what we like out of God's word and discard the rest.

Jesus Is Lord.

Can I ask what your source, excluding Strong's, for aionios? Have you any examples were the adjective does not share the same/related meaning(s) as the noun?

If what you say is true concerning this never ending life, at what point do you believe that one receives this kind of life?
 
Hmm,how do they get in with no beginning and no end?
It seems to me they would have had to be there already.
If there is an eternal punishment then it can't start or end.It must have always been.


Yes I agree, this is where many refuse to be logical.:wink:
 
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

aiōnios
Thayer Definition, Strongs, NASEC. aiōnios; from G165; agelong, eternal: - eternal (66), eternity (1), forever (1). perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Mat 13:42
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mar 9:44
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Pur, was used 74 times, not one time did it mean lust, to burn with passion. The concept is in the sentence structure. Wailing and gnashing of teeth sounds like extreme pain to me, not some lust, not some Puff of smoke and your gone.......

Twisting concepts, changing words just because I can't fathom God would ever judge and put someone in eternal punishment. It's shaky understanding at best.

Jesus Is Lord.

Am I wrong to assume that you disagree with Thayers definition of aionios, since you ignore the possibility of it meaning "age long"?
 
As I said, we mess with aionios that we mess with eternal life in God, as that invalidates any chance of living forever with the father. It's the same word, and it is clear on what it means. The Strongs, Thayer are more than enough, without finding other ways to change the meaning.

I can prove anything true if I dig deep enough, twist some compound Greek and Hebrew around, ignore the context of what is actually said "The fire is Quenched NOT" being pretty clear of the concept.

However, if this DEEP study removes eternal Punishment, we need to get it to those folks burning right now, I am sure they would like a way out.

Jesus Is Lord.

Obviously this is going to be a very limited discussion. But then I should know better. I leave it with you accomplished scholars and your Strong's concordance and less than exhaustive Hebrew/Greek dictionary.:shade:
 
The issue.

Am I wrong to assume that you disagree with Thayers definition of aionios, since you ignore the possibility of it meaning "age long"?

I think Agelong was Strongs, I just lumped everything together.

The Word given to men, was given by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God certainly was not confused in what words where given. If Hell was a set period of time, or us living with God, eternal life, was a period of time, the Holy Spirit would have used chronos

Aiōn Is a Greek noun.

It generally means Age with a end, or it can mean a start, without end. Forevermore. The word by itself being a noun have other Greek words to set the length and start of Aion.

When Jesus spoke to the fig tree, he used the Word Aion. meaning a start, and no end. "No man shall eat fruit from this tree, hereafter and forever."

Jesus used mēketi (Hereafter) and Eis which can mean a whole bunch of things depending on use.

To mean something that never ends, that had a start. You COULD say.

Eis Aion Aion. As in (Rev 20:10) (Heb 13:21)


Aionios Is a Greek adjective. It can modify the noun, or enhance it, unless there is no definite article before the adjective.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished (Greek Noun Dike) with everlasting (Greek adjective Aionios)destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So, Punished, is a noun, and the length is determined by the adjective Aionios, which means perpetual (Strongs) or never ending.


Destruction is also a Noun olethros, or prolonged death or punishment, not followed by any other Adjective.

We can try all we want to make Aionios something besides an adjective, or take away all the other possible words it can mean and just leave Age long as it's only definition, when all the others denote forever, and perpetual.

Then we can say the Holy Spirit forgot to use the Word Chronos instead when talking about hell, as that would better fit our belief of an eternal Hell. So, the Holy Spirit must have over looked this.

OR.

We can read it simply and without much fuss, conclude that there is an eternal Hell, and we have a message to get across so others can avoid it.

Because if the punishment is not forever, then we just call it purgatory, and I'll see you at Mass sometime.

Jesus Is Lord.
 
I think Agelong was Strongs, I just lumped everything together.

The Word given to men, was given by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God certainly was not confused in what words where given. If Hell was a set period of time, or us living with God, eternal life, was a period of time, the Holy Spirit would have used chronos

Aiōn Is a Greek noun.

It generally means Age with a end, or it can mean a start, without end. Forevermore. The word by itself being a noun have other Greek words to set the length and start of Aion.

When Jesus spoke to the fig tree, he used the Word Aion. meaning a start, and no end. "No man shall eat fruit from this tree, hereafter and forever."

Jesus used mēketi (Hereafter) and Eis which can mean a whole bunch of things depending on use.

To mean something that never ends, that had a start. You COULD say.

Eis Aion Aion. As in (Rev 20:10) (Heb 13:21)


Aionios Is a Greek adjective. It can modify the noun, or enhance it, unless there is no definite article before the adjective.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished (Greek Noun Dike) with everlasting (Greek adjective Aionios)destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So, Punished, is a noun, and the length is determined by the adjective Aionios, which means perpetual (Strongs) or never ending.


Destruction is also a Noun olethros, or prolonged death or punishment, not followed by any other Adjective.

We can try all we want to make Aionios something besides an adjective, or take away all the other possible words it can mean and just leave Age long as it's only definition, when all the others denote forever, and perpetual.

Then we can say the Holy Spirit forgot to use the Word Chronos instead when talking about hell, as that would better fit our belief of an eternal Hell. So, the Holy Spirit must have over looked this.

OR.

We can read it simply and without much fuss, conclude that there is an eternal Hell, and we have a message to get across so others can avoid it.

Because if the punishment is not forever, then we just call it purgatory, and I'll see you at Mass sometime.

Jesus Is Lord.

Like I said I'll just leave it with y'all to discuss.:shade:
 
Hello all.

This is a very interesting subject to study.

The word in question is ainios.

This ainios has the root aion.

Consulting Strongs Concordance.

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time)


Is god eternal, or is God defined by an age.

God is Spirit hence undefined, semantics fail us immediately.

Is it ok to translate that God is eternal,?

God is beyond the heaven of heavens, beyond time, beyond imagination.
There is no definition, but we can use eternal if you wish. No one understands the "I AM".

Does Hell last for an age, yes. How long we do not know.

Translators use eternal, is that the correct definition of ainios?

Definitely not, we are not referring to God, the only correct use is the definition derived from the root form aion an age.

Hence Hell lasts for an age.


Show me where I have gone wrong so far.
 
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We can read it simply and without much fuss, conclude that there is an eternal Hell, and we have a message to get across so others can avoid it.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Hell gives up it's dead in rev.20:13,we also seem to have some folks stored in the sea also.
New Living Translation
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

Hell or the grave gets tossed into the lake of fire so it does seem temporary.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


That brings us to the lake of fire which is an entirely different subject.
Any way if we are talking eternal,then hell does not qualify.Unless they make people swim through the lake of fire to re-enter hell or maybe they have a catapult,that would be cool.
So should there be some kind of probable cause or reasonable suspition of wrongdoing to get thrown in hell,because the judgement hasn't taken place yet?
 
BAM!!

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

BAM, judgement set at death.
Definitely not, we are not referring to God, the only correct use is the definition derived from the root form aion an age.

Hence Hell lasts for an age.

It's a Root form because it's a different Word!!! Something only becomes a root of something because it's changed.

And glad I was ignored, as I explained Aion already, because it becomes eternal when the Greek uses Aion Aion......

Aionios Is a Subjective Greek word, that can define a noun. It's mean alone means perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well).

It means perpetual........... Look it up in secular Greek language, the Strongs also indicate It was (ALSO used of past time or past and future)
Why was it used that way? I already gave example scriptures, because it's a Subjective Greek word.

But even so, Jesus said the fire is never quenched. So, we compare scriptures like we are suppose to.

Like I said, if you want to make Hell really purgatory, then I guess we all best find out to wear for Mass, I have only been to one, and forgot.

Jesus is Lord.
 
Hello Mike.

I will treat your reply one line at a time, if that is ok.

Mike said,

Like I said, if you want to make Hell really purgatory, then I guess we all best find out to wear for Mass, I have only been to one, and forgot.

Purgatory is a Catholic creation, meaning that after an additional period of unknown length the sinner can be redeemed.

Is the mass in Latin or English, some will not accept the English variant it is not of tradition. Catholics are traditionalist above all.

Your statement was not related to the topic, nor can it be.

I never said anything about redemption for the occupant of hell.
 
Again Mike.

Yes, you did say:

It's a Root form because it's a different Word!!! Something only becomes a root of something because it's changed.

It is not a different word Mike, the root is the primary meaning. Suffixes and prefixes alter the extent of the primary word.

Aion

Root: The element that carries the main component of meaning in a word and provides the basis from which a word is derived by adding affixes or inflectional endings or by phonetic change.

Aion definition : an age.

Aionios meaning,

Even in classical and in secular Greek aionios is a strange word, with a sense of mystery in it. Itself it is an adjective formed from the noun aion. In classical Greek this word aion has three main meanings.

(i) It means a life-time. Herodotus can speak of ending our aion (Herodotus, 1.32); Aeschylus, of depriving a man of his aion (Aeschylus, Prometheus 862); and Euripides of breathing away one's aion (Euripides, fragment 801).

(ii) Then it comes to mean an age, a generation, or an epoch. So the Greeks could speak of this present aion, and of the aion which is to come, this present age and the age which is to come.

(iii) But then the word comes to mean a very long space of time. The prepositional phrase ap'aionos means from of old; and di'aionos means perpetually and for ever. It is just here that the first mystery begins to enter in. In the papyri we read how at a public meeting the crowd shout `The Emperor eis ton aiona, The Emperor for ever.'
 
Further Mike.

You said,

Aionios Is a Subjective Greek word, that can define a noun. It's mean alone means perpetual

This is not correct, it has three possible meanings which I addressed in the previous post. Each of the three meanings are derived from the root form aion.
 
Mike.

I do not mean to be tough on you, but you did say,

But even so, Jesus said the fire is never quenched. So, we compare scriptures like we are suppose to.

We were discussing aion and its derivatives.

Now for the reply,

1 Timothy 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Explain this one wordsmith.
 
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