Hell for non-followers of Christ?

[eddieb]

normally i post scripture from the kjv. however this is one scripture i think the niv does more justice.
isaiah 50:11
But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from my hand: You will lie down in torment.

laying down in torment sounds to me like pretty bad stuff.

revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

and who is the false prophet? a person aka the antichrist? i know that only speaks of one person, but all the other scriptures speaking of non-believers eternal damnation i am aware of are already posted. the bible is full of scriptures indicating "hell" is everlasting/without end.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42)

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 22:12-13).

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 24:50-51).

But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out (Luke 13:27-28).

the term weeping and gnashing of teeth appear 7 times in the new testament. (that i am aware of)

 

[Fraction]

This is going to bring about a lot of... interesting replies maybe.

Even through all of the scriptures posted, I believe in destruction vs suffering forever. I find myself... unable to buy into the concept of the traditional definition of hell.

:sweating:

 

[Brother Mike]

Hell.

Even through all of the scriptures posted,

?????????

I believe in destruction vs suffering forever. I find myself... unable to buy into the concept of the traditional definition of hell.

What about the scriptures posted?

The only way to remove eternal Hell, is to dig in, play with words such as everlasting, Believe Jesus was talking about a burning trash pile that is not longer burning.

Believe God was a just completely unable to give us the right English translations, or Jesus got confused a bit about that fire that is quenched not.

Say Jesus was just telling a parable about the rich man And Abraham, even though this is the only Parable he gave real names, never said it was a parable, and certainly does not compare to the other types of parables he gave. We just ignore all that.

Then we have to make man just a soul, and body. Man is no longer created in the Image of God being spirit. So once your dead, Ka-plunk that is it....... Oh, someone wakes you for judgement so you don't miss that of course, but otherwise.... No spirit, and Ka-Plunk.

We also have to change the Greek for everlasting to not really mean that, and hence no everlasting fire, No everlasting life in God....

Ka-Plunk!!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Fraction]

?????????

What about the scriptures posted?

The only way to remove eternal Hell, is to dig in, play with words such as everlasting, Believe Jesus was talking about a burning trash pile that is not longer burning.

Believe God was a just completely unable to give us the right English translations, or Jesus got confused a bit about that fire that is quenched not.

Say Jesus was just telling a parable about the rich man And Abraham, even though this is the only Parable he gave real names, never said it was a parable, and certainly does not compare to the other types of parables he gave. We just ignore all that.

Then we have to make man just a soul, and body. Man is no longer created in the Image of God being spirit. So once your dead, Ka-plunk that is it....... Oh, someone wakes you for judgement so you don't miss that of course, but otherwise.... No spirit, and Ka-Plunk.

We also have to change the Greek for everlasting to not really mean that, and hence no everlasting fire, No everlasting life in God....

Ka-Plunk!!!!

Jesus Is Lord.

Maybe you could ask about my personal view in detail before ranting like a child. Would it be that difficult to ask why?

 

[Brother Mike]

Opps hit the Edit button.

Sorry, hit the edit button by mistake. Nothing was changed.

My Hope is that your "Personal" view is in line with the Word, explaining every scripture.

My childish ranting can be backed by a whole bunch of scriptures.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Fraction]

Sorry, hit the edit button by mistake. Nothing was changed.

My Hope is that your "Personal" view is in line with the Word, explaining every scripture.

My childish ranting can be backed by a whole bunch of scriptures.

Jesus Is Lord.

I wouldn't have noticed that you hit edit by accident, but thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate it.

My personal view is in line with the word. I have not bent and twisted it at all. The only difference is between the understanding and interpretations of different people. If it would make you feel better, I could reply with some scriptures and explain how I view them and why.

Sadly, I was talking about your post directed at me when I brought up childish ranting. I could take it apart and let you know why in great detail, but you would get offended. However, the false assumption or diagnostic of my belief is NOT support by scripture. It was also based off of complete ignorance (no offense), because not enough information was given.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hell, real or just a myth.

Well, I certainly will not be offended by anything, Nor do I ever get offended. The wife though, well, that is another post.

but if you have something new to share we have not even considered here that does not attack Greek words for Hell, and hades (Grave), and does not mess with the words everlasting, or Jesus was talking about some pit in the Valley of Himmon, or dig some passages out about the dead know nothing, or even Jesus saying God will destroy Body and soul in Hell.

I am interested, otherwise it's all been discussed before.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Kit Carson]

Men, the church, the religion, simply will not accept the truth. Hell is very real and will be. It is a place one should hope to avoid at all costs.

It is however very easy to avoid. To ask upon Jesus as a savior is so very simple , yet so very few do so. But this is the one thing and the only thing that keeps this liquid fire that burns without destruction from us.

God has over time tried several things to combat the free will and soul of man, he destroyed us several times, or towns and so on, he put us in the mix and used us to destroy those of evil, and finally he brought about our salvation through his son.

But people simply as God says, very few will find the road. They wish to ignore this and that, to let crime and many things occur, and naturally say.....hell is but a one time destruction. This is the human mind......God is just, he is kind, he is rewarding, but he does demand obedience. There is no middle ground on that one. You will not win against him. Once you realize this, then you find you do not wish to win as you begin to see his way is best and one wonders why others cannot so see.

Sorry Charlie, it is everlasting, and you do not want to go there. For those who have accepted Jesus it is a non issue. You are safe.

But I can go to Yahoo or the news on the computer and watch all the comments.......and I see very rarely a comment from someone who knows God, I see self gratification, evil, and a sense of total ignorance in the world........so it is no mystery to me as to why the world is as it is.

Hell is forever.......you do not want to go there.

Respectfully

Kit

 

[JosephLove]

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." - Malachi 4:1

The above verse claims that God will not just burn the wicked, but rather He will burn them up. How far will He burn them up? To the point they have neither root or branch. In other words, until nothing is left of them!

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matthew 25:46

Only the saved will receive eternal life. The wicked will suffer a everlasting punishment.
Truly, suffering a second and final death would indeed be an everlasting punishment!

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matthew 25:41

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." - Jude 1:7

Sodom and Gomorrha were examples of those who will suffer eternal fire. However, Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning today. The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself!

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." - Revelation 20:10

In Greek, the term "for ever and ever" is actually "eons of the eons", and that's not enough to convince me it means eternity.
Let's break that verse down in proper English grammar, shall we? Anyone good at prepositional phrases? Then you would know "where the beast and false prophet are" is the prepositional phrase. Devil is the noun, so therefore it is the devil who is tormented day and night for eons and eons.

In the phrase "where the beast and false prophet are", the word "are" was added by the translators. Therefore, another possible word that could have been used is "were".

This verse could have been translated:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone (where the beast and the false prophet were) and shall be tormented day and night for eons and eons.

I just don't see enough evidence to believe the version of hell invented in the 1300s by Dante Alighieri.
Oddly enough, Dante was a pagan poet. I'm not surprised, most all main-stream Christian ideas come from out-right paganism. Such as popular holidays for example.

So yeah, I believe false teachings often push people away from the true God.
Both Albert Einstein and Thomas Jefferson admitted the world must have some kind of creator, but they refused to believe a god of love could burn people alive without ever completely burning them up.
How sad.

 

[David777]

Hello all.

Have been following the posts keenly.

I struggle more than most on this topic.

I fully agree with JiggyFly and with Fraction.

But, I also agree with Mike.

This is the one aspect of scriptural revelation that I have never been able to resolve.
On the surface it is not tenable that a 70 year life filled with rejection of Jesus,
could be punished by never ending agony. The maths is wrong. Is this the work of a God of Love?

Then again, scripture is God breathed, this is revelation! Not negotiable.

There must be a problem somewhere?

Every other area of scripture presents no real problem.

Why does this one area create such difficulty and pain.

 

[jiggyfly]

Have been following the posts keenly.

I struggle more than most on this topic.

I fully agree with JiggyFly and with Fraction.

But, I also agree with Mike.

This is the one aspect of scriptural revelation that I have never been able to resolve.
On the surface it is not tenable that a 70 year life filled with rejection of Jesus,
could be punished by never ending agony. The maths is wrong. Is this the work of a God of Love?

Then again, scripture is God breathed, this is revelation! Not negotiable.

There must be a problem somewhere?

Every other area of scripture presents no real problem.

Why does this one area create such difficulty and pain.

Hey David, try a word study on Hebrew words alam and olam and on Greek words aion and aionios, maybe this can help you resolve the conflict. If you need some resources to help you with the word study just give me a PM.

 

[Kit Carson]

I think some things only God knows what he will do. As he does say I will grant mercy and grace upon those I so choose to do so. So none of us know Gods mind.

This is something I have long thought about myself.
Say a child is born into the world and is a product of the world. This child is a good child and has good parents and grows up to be a good person. They would no more harm anyone intentionally than I would. They do become good , but they are a product of the world. The way we are taught in school, all the evolution theory and so on. They become very schooled and intelligent, but simply due to environment cannot quite grasp the idea of God. Maybe God does try a time or to to pull at them but the lifetime of learning pushes him away.

So will God condemn such a person who has grown up in the world that is basically a result of his creation and by the things that do occur in any one persons life.
Or will he smile and say, well you dummy here I am , do you accept me now??

I myself have wondered this also. You can have a person like Paul who used to kill Christians, but Jesus grabbed him and made him good, and you can have the atheist who is good but never has believed.

So what will God do, how will he judge. No one knows, only he does, this is why I do not myself ever get upset with a non believer as the final say so is by God. I offer them the grace that God has given to me and will let God so decide on such things.

I still hold to the idea that if one does end up in hell it is not a temporary condition. That if you do end up there, it is forever. We as men do tend to be very forgiving at times, we forgive crimes and we forgive rape and murder and lies and deceit, and we say........gee to punish this harsh is kinda ........well harsh. So we try to rehabilitate them and they get out and do the crime again. All we did is prolong the end result.

But God shows in his word that he does not play games. He is kind and true and supportive, but if you end up on his bad side, his way is serious.

Kit

 

[Beans]

Have been following the posts keenly.

I struggle more than most on this topic.

I fully agree with JiggyFly and with Fraction.

But, I also agree with Mike.

This is the one aspect of scriptural revelation that I have never been able to resolve.
On the surface it is not tenable that a 70 year life filled with rejection of Jesus,
could be punished by never ending agony. The maths is wrong. Is this the work of a God of Love?

Then again, scripture is God breathed, this is revelation! Not negotiable.

There must be a problem somewhere?

Every other area of scripture presents no real problem.

Why does this one area create such difficulty and pain.

Hi Dave777.
I have the same problems. Like you say the maths does not compute.
It's a bit like a man owning a dog that one day bites someone and so instead of destroying the dog he tortures it forever! The punishment seems worse than the crime.
I could understand God destroying people. It's a bit like throwing something away that's broken. It no longer serves the purpose that it was created for.
But I think (and I know this is only human reasoning), that a loving God would not punish people without some kind of plan for rehabilitation. If there is to be no rehabilitation, then what is the purpose of Hell? Torture without a plan does not seem rational to me and I see from God's creation and his Word that he is very rational.

In the end, I have to say, I don't know, but I trust that God does. And I trust that if Hell is eternal suffering that God has a loving reason for it (it's just that I don't understand it now).

Beans

 

[David777]

Tough stuff.

Hey JiggyFly I am slowly working my way through the Hebrew and Greek words.
It could take some time, will let you know if I can work it out.
Hopefully the Holy Spirit will intervene and convict one way or the other.

Beans, suffering may be preferable to death in the scheme of things.

There are numerous ways to view this problem.

I have consistently tried not to commit one way or the other.

Up to now I rested on annihilation, the scripture may not allow this.

I am starting to research this more deeply.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hey JiggyFly I am slowly working my way through the Hebrew and Greek words.
It could take some time, will let you know if I can work it out.
Hopefully the Holy Spirit will intervene and convict one way or the other.

Beans, suffering may be preferable to death in the scheme of things.

There are numerous ways to view this problem.

I have consistently tried not to commit one way or the other.

Up to now I rested on annihilation, the scripture may not allow this.

I am starting to research this more deeply.

Believe me I understand David, my initial study took several months, then it changed how I looked at everything in the scriptures. It does involve some discipline and an invested amount of time but it is very rewarding. As I said earlier please let me know if you need some resources and I will direct you to some that I have checked out and think are credible.

 

[judge not]

Believe me I understand David, my initial study took several months, then it changed how I looked at everything in the scriptures. It does involve some discipline and an invested amount of time but it is very rewarding. As I said earlier please let me know if you need some resources and I will direct you to some that I have checked out and think are credible.

some people can look at a scripture and understand immediately-is this a gift of the Holy spirit? Others research for months and still are wrong with their interpretation. Preachers have been teaching false doctrine for years even after a lifetime of study-many are big names on television and radio with millions of followers and are wrong on many major beliefs. How so?

 

[jiggyfly]

some people can look at a scripture and understand immediately-is this a gift of the Holy spirit? Others research for months and still are wrong with their interpretation. Preachers have been teaching false doctrine for years even after a lifetime of study-many are big names on television and radio with millions of followers and are wrong on many major beliefs. How so?

I guess it would depend upon what one considers to be scripture and whether translations are considered to be the same as scripture.
I do not trust many of the English translations, especially those from the MT text, so I study because I don't read Greek or Hebrew yet.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hell.

Judge Not.

some people can look at a scripture and understand immediately-is this a gift of the Holy spirit? Others research for months and still are wrong with their interpretation. Preachers have been teaching false doctrine for years even after a lifetime of study-many are big names on television and radio with millions of followers and are wrong on many major beliefs. How so?

Often the most convoluted and twisted doctrines come from a dogged determination to study ourselves right out of what is so simple and true to start with. We do have the Holy Spirit, and I trust in Him to guide me into all truth. If Hell where not eternal, people being there now, He would have mentioned it to me.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Fraction]

Judge Not.


Often the most convoluted and twisted doctrines come from a dogged determination to study ourselves right out of what is so simple and true to start with. We do have the Holy Spirit, and I trust in Him to guide me into all truth. If Hell where not eternal, people being there now, He would have mentioned it to me.

Jesus Is Lord.

Is it possible that when using the word eternal in this subject for it to mean that it is always there to be utilized? Instead of eternal suffering, could it mean that the punishment for the crimes never change?

Serious question.

 

[B-A-C]

This whole discussion seems a little pointless to me. Arguing semantics I think.

Is hell eternal? maybe I don't know.
I do know that it gets thrown into the lake of fire eventually. (Rev 20:14)

Maybe unbelievers go to hell first. Ok, I can believe that. (Luk 16:22-23)
Maybe they get thrown directly into the Lake of fire. (Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10, Rev 20:15)

Either way, I'm not sure it makes much difference.

Whats the difference between jail and prison? One is temporary, the other is permanent. Jail is often where criminals are held until a hearing or a judgement.

I know someday there will be a judgement for all non-believers.

So, what difference does it make if I burn for a while in a temporary place, if eventually I'm going to get thrown into a place where I'll burn permanently? Either way it's not going to be pleasant. (an understatement).

So I think I'll just do my part to make sure I don't end up in either place.