Is God good?

[Chad]

The problem with that explanation is the same one I posted before on page thirteen, and it inevitably leads to the' Mafia Boss' analogy.

In essence, you're saying that God has created this scenario and tells Adam and Eve that they can either obey him and be alright or disobey and get go to hell; how is this different than a Mafia Boss walking into someones store and saying, "Hey we can protect you from this, but you gotta pay and if you don't we're gonna break your thumbs"?

Another analogy commonly heard is this: I walk up to you and put a gun to your head. I then say, "Give me all of your money, don't make me shoot you." If you then refuse to give me your money, have you committed suicide?

Wrong. GOD is Holy, He is Creator. He gives us FREE WILL to choose right or wrong. GOD is Holy and the standard of what is right. No man, law, judge, government can set the ultimate standard of what is right, pure, Holy except Him our Creator.

That's not an opinion, its fact whether you agree or disagree.

Man does send himself to hell if he rejects GOD's Holiness AND above all, His grace for forgiveness through Jesus Christ for our sins.

If you kill someone, you go to jail. Did anyone force you to kill? No. Does anyone force you to steal, lie, cheat, murder, hate, love, offer kindness, forgive, not forgive, etc? No. Its your free choice and free will.

http://www.talkjesus.com/get-saved-now/13601-questions-objections.html

 

[Neuroscience101]

Wrong. GOD is Holy, He is Creator. He gives us FREE WILL to choose right or wrong. GOD is Holy and the standard of what is right. No man, law, judge, government can set the ultimate standard of what is right, pure, Holy except Him our Creator.

...

Man does send himself to hell if he rejects GOD's Holiness AND above all, His grace for forgiveness through Jesus Christ for our sins.

Chad, you're not dealing with the actual analogy or with what I said before:

1) Did God create Hell?

2) Does God create the rules of the universe including the criteria by which souls are judged?

3) Does anything happen that does not go according to God's will?

We all know the answer to these questions (yes, yes and no respectfully), and it follows that - if they are all true, of which they are because they come from the Bible (which is of course not an assertion that the Bible is true, however it acts on that assumption in the theological sense) - then God is ultimately responsible for everything including the souls that are sent to hell.

The distinction of whether it's right or wrong is not the issue. It's the issue of whether or not this is any different than the mafia boss analogy. How is it different, Chad, is all I'm asking because I'm curious for an actual answer.

Essentially, I asked questions about the color blue and you immediately replied, "Orange."

EDIT: Chad, if you're going to say the analogy is wrong, you need to explain why the analogy is wrong and actually deal with the core of it. I'm happy to have that conversation, but we can't curtsy around it and discuss something else.

 

[Jacob123]

1) Yes God did create hell.
2) Yes He did create the criteria by which souls are judged.
3) Yes He is in control of everything.

It is simple, God created hell for people who reject Him. Hell is 100% absent of God that is why it is a terrible place. It is choosing if you want to be with God (heaven) or if you don't want to be with God (hell). Hell is needed as an alternative to God. Am I making sense?

 

[s.i.e.]

Will God's will be done?

It's not his will that any should perish so how can any perish?
I would call that a conflict.

If we can't answer these kind of simple questions then we are easy pickins for atheists.


In the Old Testament(KJV) Sheol was translated 31 times as "the grave"
and 31 times as hell and 3 times as "the pit".
In the new testament Jesus named "Gehenna" as the place that "their worm dieth not and the fire never ceases".
Gehenna was the city dump outside Jerusalem.Which very unfortunately was translated as "hell".
Jesus also used Sheol which translated hell.
Solomon said those in "the grave" know nothing.
Jesus used "the dump" allegory to emphasize a wasted life not eternal punishment.

Rev. 20:13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

According to revelation there are dead people in lots of places.
"In my Fathers house there are many mansions".
It's a house in a house.

Now if bad people drown does God leave them in the sea or drag them out and throw them in hell.

thiscrosshurts: what are you suggesting here? I'm trying to follow you but not sure where you're leading? I like your info.

In essence, you're saying that God has created this scenario and tells Adam and Eve that they can either obey him and be alright or disobey and get go to hell; how is this different than a Mafia Boss walking into someones store and saying, "Hey we can protect you from this, but you gotta pay and if you don't we're gonna break your thumbs"?

I'm with ya here Neuro - and made that point earlier in this thread, and still have the same question.

In essence, this would make the choice model, just another control system. We are veiled by choice. It is all we know. But it may not be the truth. It may just be all we can know since we live in, and throughout, time. We naively consider God to have no say in our trajectory, because after all, everything is our choice, so we are told. Yet, at the same time, out of the other side of our mouths, we say things like God is all sovereign, or we agree that faith is a gift given only by God.

So - which is it?

Yet, we live in this state of bliss, somehow believing both. We say things like people choose hell for themselves, while also "knowing" that God hardened Pharoah's heart and has the power to compel anyone in this world towards Him, if He wants to. It's all based on His will, and what He wants to do?

Is choice really a lie? A very convenient, rational, and logical one to believe? And if it is a lie, and the model is God's complete sovereignty...then He is the one who causes pain and suffering and ultimately sending people to hell.

I'm not seeing a "3rd option" in this...

 

[s.i.e.]

all do not preach that the american dream, and that is basiclly all i see on christian tv. the word teaches me i will have troubles, and trails, no matter how much i serve God, and the more i serve God the more satan attack.

amen to that, smitty

 

[s.i.e.]

Chad - I looked at your "Questions and Objections" link, and I found it a bit humorous, but mostly, sad. It's like, you've got all the answers. At minimum, folks should be skeptical of this. And it's not, necessarily, because your answers are wrong, per se.

But if God is Love, then what we're really trying to understand here is LOVE. And you really can't have a set of "Objections and Questions??" to something like Love. No one can define Love. It is not definable.

I Cor 13 did an extremely good, and helpful, description of many things, Love. Some of the attributes of Love, some of the ways you can identify, Love. How to see whether you're giving or receiving, Love, etc. Awesome stuff. We also know what Love is. It is God.

But we can't define it.

If we could, we could have some sort of control over it. Or, way to somehow manage it. We could kind of put it in a box, perhaps duplicate it, or perhaps even create it...if we fully knew how to define it. We could define exactly what it is...and we could define exactly what it isn't. And if we could do that, we would then, be GOD.

And I can hear the retorts: but we can know GOD! Well, 1 Corinthians 2:11 says "In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God." No, on this earth 1 Cor 13:12 applies: "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. "



With that, I'll digress to this vignette, for something to consider. (going back to the choice vs destiny...and what is really an illusion, or not?) From The Matrix...

<dl><dd>Morpheus: You know why we are here.</dd><dd>Merovingian: [condescendingly] I am a trafficker of information, I know everything I can. The question is, do you know why you are here?</dd><dd>Morpheus: We are looking for the Keymaker.</dd><dd>Merovingian: Oh yes, it is true. The Keymaker, of course. But this is not a reason, this is not a why; the Keymaker himself, his very nature, is a means, not an end, and so to look for him is to be looking for a means to do...what?</dd><dd>Neo: You know the answer to that question.</dd><dd>Merovingian: But do you? You think you do, but you do not. You are here because you were sent here, you were told to come here and then you obeyed. [chuckles] It is of course the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: causality. Action, reaction. Cause, effect.</dd><dd>Morpheus: Everything begins with choice.</dd><dd>Merovingian: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power and those without.</dd></dl>

 

[Eagle_Eyes]

As I expected, you've all responded negatively.

Herein lies the problem. Unless you believe he is a prophet, you will always pick holes in what he said. If a prophet speaks in the Name of the Lord and it always comes to pass, then God sent that prophet. Bro. Branham's prediction was just that: a prediction, a guess. That wasn't in the Name of the Lord; it was just his own personal opinion based on how he saw the world was going. But when he spoke saying 'thus saith the Lord', not one word failed. The thing of it is, you just want to believe what you feel is the truth instead of actually belieivng what is the truth. You try to fit God into your lives instead of trying to fit yourselves into God. If Bro. Branham is not the Elijah to come and restore all things, who is it then? Tell me. The Lord prophesied that this Elijah was coming. Where is he? We are living in the last days. Jesus referred to John the Baptist as Elijah also. he didn't say that John the Baptist has come already, but he said that Elijah has come already. The scripture may not say the words, 'William Branham' but it is him nonetheless. We are in that Bible also but our names are not expressly written either.

Your problem is that you have picked holes in what Bro. Branham said, and you haven't even bothered to see whether any of his prophecies have not come to pass. You won't find any and yet you call him a false prophet? This is foolish and dangerous. If anything he said did not come to pass then, yes, he is a false prophet. But if it is proved he is not a false prophet, then you would be wise to listen to what he said, no matter out crazy it may sound. Jesus drove people away by the things He said.

 

[james g]

Branham said=
Now, notice. This man, when he was created, God separated his spirit, and He took a piece off the man, his side, and made a woman out of it. And then He took the feminish, dainty spirit of the man and made a woman out of it, and He made the man masculine, burly. And when you see a--a man that's little, you know, manicuring (or whatever you call it) his fingernails and, you know, four on one side and five on the other, and--and is slicking his hair down, and holding his mouth open in front, and such stuff as that, one of these pretty boys; you just remember, sis, there's something wrong with that bird. There's something wrong. You better keep your eye on him.
Branham said=
Now, Noah and his sons which come out, Ham, Shem, and Japheth, come out in the righteous line. How did the seed ever get over? The seed come over in the ark, just like it did in the beginning through the woman, their wives. They carried the seed of Satan through the ark, just as Eve packed the seed of Satan to give birth to Cain, through the woman. You put them women in your platforms for preachers, the Bible condemning it. Paul said, "If any man thinks himself to be a prophet or even spiritual, let him acknowledge that what I write is the commandments of the Lord; but if he be ignorant, just let him be ignorant."
Branham said=
Now, you say, "Can they dwell together? You said that they're in that ark, Brother Branham. You had in there both Ham and Seth." That's right, exactly right; Ham was evil. Seth was religious and righteous. All right, let's follow Ham.
All right now, there's Ham and Seth in the same ark, one righteous, and the other unrighteous. There was a crow and a dove in the same ark. There was Judas and Jesus in the same church. There was the antichrist and the Holy Spirit in the same church. And today the same spirits work, having a form of godliness, very religious, but "having a form of godliness and denying the power thereof. From such turn away."
Eagle Eyes -what is he talking about

 

[smitty]

eagle eyes, what were the prophecies that Rev. Branham predicted.
thanks for the information

 

[Neuroscience101]

1) Yes God did create hell.
2) Yes He did create the criteria by which souls are judged.
3) Yes He is in control of everything.

It is simple, God created hell for people who reject Him. Hell is 100% absent of God that is why it is a terrible place. It is choosing if you want to be with God (heaven) or if you don't want to be with God (hell). Hell is needed as an alternative to God. Am I making sense?

Jacob, we're now running in circles, and what's worse is the analogy and questions I am making/asking are all too common.

The third question is not what I asked, I specifically asked, "Does anything happen that does not happen according to God's Will?" The answer to that is No.

Following all of that, the conclusion is that God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens including the souls he sends to hell.

When you say, "No you're responsible" it means you're not looking at any of the other scenarios I've presented. To reiterate:

I'm holding a gun to your head. I then say, "Give me all of your money. Don't make me shoot you." If you refuse to give me your money, does that mean you committed suicide? I gave you the options, 1) Obey me or 2) Die and you can freely choose between the two. Do you honestly - and I mean honestly - consider that a free choice?

This question asked to instigate anything. However, it is a pressing question and an important one at that as it demonstrates the discontinuity between "Free will" and "God's Will.

 

[s.i.e.]

If Bro. Branham is not the Elijah to come and restore all things, who is it then? Tell me. The Lord prophesied that this Elijah was coming. Where is he?

The Bible also predicted the 2nd coming of Christ...and just because that hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't! Some people thought it was today. They are false prophets, so we shouldn't listen to them...but it doesn't mean the Bible is wrong...it just hasn't yet come to pass.

Why is it that you think this "Elijah" has had to have already come, at this point in history? Who are you to know that? Just because it happens to be 2011, you somehow think we, for sure, must be past the time that this supposed "Elijah" should have come by now?

You sound like a frustrated person standing in line at a fast-food joint, incredulous about the fact that the food hasn't come by now. History doesn't bend to you and your time-demands...it unfolds as it pleases.

We are living in the last days.

Really? Perhaps we are, perhaps not. Paul thought the last days were 2000 years ago. Don't hold your breath on the last days, Eagle Eyes...unless you want to see your last days sooner rather than later.

The scripture may not say the words, 'William Branham' but it is him nonetheless. We are in that Bible also but our names are not expressly written either.

No, we have our names written (or not!) in the Lambs Book of Life, not the Bible.

This is foolish and dangerous.

The fact that you have chosen to believe in this man is foolish and dangerous, Eagle Eyes.

Jesus drove people away by the things He said.

Just because things may be contrarian doesn't necessarily mean they are right! You seem to gain conviction just because there are a lot of people, like many of those posting here, who think Branham was deceived. I generally like contrarianism...but you have to be careful with it. The masses may be deceived...but that doesn't mean the few are correct.

 

[s.i.e.]

However, it is a pressing question and an important one at that as it demonstrates the discontinuity between "Free will" and "God's Will.

Neuro is right. It is one of the main underpinnings that brought me to the question of Is God good?...because if it's all a setup, you have to then try to understand the person who set it up...who may, or may not, be good.

 

[smitty]

neursceince 101, God is not forcing His will on anyone.when some one holds a gun to your head, you have to make a choice now, God allows you to make a choice or not .
if i understand you you said that nothing happens outside of God's will. do you think, sexual abuse of childern is in God's will, murder, rape, stealing, we live in a fallen world, what do you think God wrath is going to poured out on and for what reason,? man will be judge for his actions, or in other words his sins. there are things we will never understand about Go and why he has allowed evil to grow in this world. we have the choice to be forgiven, or unforgiven. i will say this, god can take something that has happen to someone that was evil and turn it for good.
all i know is that we have to take God at his word and trust Him, and believe .

 

[Eagle_Eyes]

The Bible also predicted the 2nd coming of Christ...and just because that hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it won't! Some people thought it was today. They are false prophets, so we shouldn't listen to them...but it doesn't mean the Bible is wrong...it just hasn't yet come to pass.

Why is it that you think this "Elijah" has had to have already come, at this point in history? Who are you to know that? Just because it happens to be 2011, you somehow think we, for sure, must be past the time that this supposed "Elijah" should have come by now?

You sound like a frustrated person standing in line at a fast-food joint, incredulous about the fact that the food hasn't come by now. History doesn't bend to you and your time-demands...it unfolds as it pleases.




Really? Perhaps we are, perhaps not. Paul thought the last days were 2000 years ago. Don't hold your breath on the last days, Eagle Eyes...unless you want to see your last days sooner rather than later.




No, we have our names written (or not!) in the Lambs Book of Life, not the Bible.




The fact that you have chosen to believe in this man is foolish and dangerous, Eagle Eyes.




Just because things may be contrarian doesn't necessarily mean they are right! You seem to gain conviction just because there are a lot of people, like many of those posting here, who think Branham was deceived. I generally like contrarianism...but you have to be careful with it. The masses may be deceived...but that doesn't mean the few are correct.

Look at the world around you. Jesus said as it was in the days of Lot, so shall it be at the coming of the son of man. Where was Lot living? Sodom. What was in Sodom? Brazen homosexuaility, for one. What do we have today on a mass scale? Brazen homosexuality and everything else ungodly

How do you know that the 2nd coming hasn't happened already, and people have missed it and are missing it? I'm not saying this things are so. I believe Bro. Branham is a prophet, and so did all the religious people of his day, and I believe everything he said, in the Name of the Lord, has come to pass and will come to pass. He was totally vindicated. He had a picture taken with the pillar of fire above him and the FBI even said that the light struck the lens, i.e. it was actually there! And yet people still call him a false prophet.

Yes, I am frustrated: frustrated that people are going to miss it.

As for where our names are written - you are missing the point entirely. Jesus said that ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Who is 'ye'? Everyone that is born of God are 'ye'. Besides, our earthly names are not our real spiritual names. We will have a new name.

 

[james g]

<DIR>I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
</DIR>[Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good ?there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good ? there is none good but one, that is, God.Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good ? none is good, save one, that is ,God.

 

[s.i.e.]

Yes, I am frustrated: frustrated that people are going to miss it.

Miss what, Eagle Eyes? Is there something that I would miss by not believing in Branham? You talk of it as though I might miss salvation. ??

And...what??? The 2nd coming may have already happened? What?? Are you implying that Branham was the Christ or something?? What are you eluding to here?

Nevermind...it doesn't really matter. This is a lie through and through.

 

[Neuroscience101]

neursceince 101, God is not forcing His will on anyone.when some one holds a gun to your head, you have to make a choice now, God allows you to make a choice or not .
if i understand you you said that nothing happens outside of God's will. do you think, sexual abuse of childern is in God's will, murder, rape, stealing, we live in a fallen world, what do you think God wrath is going to poured out on and for what reason,? man will be judge for his actions, or in other words his sins. there are things we will never understand about Go and why he has allowed evil to grow in this world. we have the choice to be forgiven, or unforgiven. i will say this, god can take something that has happen to someone that was evil and turn it for good.
all i know is that we have to take God at his word and trust Him, and believe .

smitty,

That very first point is in clear defiance of the final question I asked, "Does anything happen that does not go according to God's will?" The answer is No.

How is it possible for God's will to be done, but for it to also not be done? That's a huge conflict.

 

[Neuroscience101]

I believe Bro. Branham is a prophet, and so did all the religious people of his day, and I believe everything he said, in the Name of the Lord, has come to pass and will come to pass

Eagle! No! That's a serious conflict! Earlier, you said:

Bro.Branham only preached from the Bible. Nowhere else. What he taught were not add-ons but mystery truths hidden in the Word since before the foundation of the world.

...

What Bro. Branham said about 1977 was his own personal opinion and prediction; not a prophecy

He cannot both be a prophet and then merely "predict". Also, if you believe that everything he said in the name of the Lord is true and will come to pass, then you're agreeing to his 1977 prophecy!

That's a conflict.

 

[Jacob123]

Jacob, we're now running in circles, and what's worse is the analogy and questions I am making/asking are all too common.

The third question is not what I asked, I specifically asked, "Does anything happen that does not happen according to God's Will?" The answer to that is No.

Following all of that, the conclusion is that God is ultimately responsible for everything that happens including the souls he sends to hell.

When you say, "No you're responsible" it means you're not looking at any of the other scenarios I've presented. To reiterate:

I'm holding a gun to your head. I then say, "Give me all of your money. Don't make me shoot you." If you refuse to give me your money, does that mean you committed suicide? I gave you the options, 1) Obey me or 2) Die and you can freely choose between the two. Do you honestly - and I mean honestly - consider that a free choice?

This question asked to instigate anything. However, it is a pressing question and an important one at that as it demonstrates the discontinuity between "Free will" and "God's Will.

No, it isnt like the gun scenario. God is simply saying you can either spend eternity with me or completely away from me. Like I said before, hell is terrible because God is 100% percent absent from it. He made a place that is completely seperated from Him for the people who reject him, besides why would someone wanna spend eternity with God in heaven if they reject Him and do not want anything to do with Him? God grants the wish for the people who reject Him by making a place that is completely blocked off from Him, which is hell. It is free will because God is not forcing Himself upon us.

Heaven = In God's presence, thats why it is such a wonderful place.

Hell = Completely away from God's presence, thats why it is not enjoyable to to have spend eternity in hell.

 

[Neuroscience101]

No, it isnt like the gun scenario. God is simply saying you can either spend eternity with me or completely away from me. Like I said before, hell is terrible because God is 100% percent absent from it. He made a place that is completely seperated from Him for the people who reject him, besides why would someone wanna spend eternity with God in heaven if they reject Him and do not want anything to do with Him? God grants the wish for the people who reject Him by making a place that is completely blocked off from Him, which is hell. It is free will because God is not forcing Himself upon us.

Heaven = In God's presence, thats why it is such a wonderful place.

Hell = Completely away from God's presence, thats why it is not enjoyable to to have spend eternity in hell.

Jacob...that's the same thing as the scenario above.

You can either live or you can die. It's your choice.

No one saying that it isn't a choice, but it's not really a free choice now is it? It would be better of saying that it's the law; that it's cumpolsory. It's just word games.

If the taxman came to your house and said, "We have a new tax policy where you can choose to either pay or not pat, but if you don't pay we're going to send you to jail and you're going to get your butt kicked." Is that really a choice? Doesn't it make more sense to say that it's the law?

Regardless, you're still saying that humans can choose what they want, but that is in completely contradiction to the your admission that 'nothing happens that does not go according to God's will.' How can you explain that conflict?