Mid-tribulation

kevinlb63 · Feb 17, 2012

{the revelation revealed } please read all the way to the End!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and dont stop!

this is as simpel as i can make it for any one and this is the beginning starting with the #7 and in all
Instances the # 7 has a End result or meaning!! The KJV mentions the #7 391 times!!! lets leave out all the other numbers!

ok lets start with this!

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth in 7 days!! and on the 7th day God rested!!!

now for the next!
next
7 seals have a END result
next
7 Vials have a END result
next
7 angels and trumpets have a END result
here is the end result
rev:8:

2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
rev:9
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall {begin to sound}, the mystery of God should be
{finished,} as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. {second comeing and final comeing!...........}
rev:11
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,!!!!!!
{the mystery of God should be finished,} {as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.}
15 And the {seventh angel sounded;} and there were great voices in heaven, {saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;} {and he shall reign for ever and ever.} this is the END!!! second comeing and final comeing!...........
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned!!!. this is the End the END! now comes christ judgement on the wourld!! on the next line below
matthew 25:31-46 sheep and goats the second comeing and final comeing!........... there are not a 3th or 4th....
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

32 {All the nations }will be gathered before him, and he will separate!! the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the {goats}. The goats are the rest of the world that did not believe in him!! there is no fleash in the presence of christ only spiritual bodys there is no one left! on the earth thay are in the air! the good bad and the ugly will be with christ as stated below on his left! .

33 He will put the sheep on his right! and the goats on his left!.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. {the bride}

35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
the {feast} is next! read below
revelation 19
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the
midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the {supper of the great God};
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of
horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of {all men}, {both free and bond, both small and great}. this is every man and womans body laying on the ground every one!!!!! there is no one left! on the earth thay are in the air the good bad and the ugly the fleash does not go to heaven! then after this we will be with christ for a thousand years. and here is the glory of all after 7000 years again god rest again untill the thousand years are over. that is why the #7 means so much!

Brother Mike · Feb 17, 2012

Depature of the Antichrist, and other things.

Hey brothers....... Mike really did not want to come here and debate, I actually posted when some post where reported and Chad posted, having just banned another Member which deserved it. Lots of people read what we post every day, compared to the few of us that give light in the Word. Chad wants thing in the truth, with thought and care.

I came in hopes to calm the thread down, and keep everyone happy.

Rev 12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Tribulation is a specific time God gave of seven years to accomplish his goals. Jesus said he beheld Satan fall like lightning. Rev 12 is a past event. So time is short means what? a couple thousand years?

When Jesus came to earth, He brought the Kingdom of God, that abides in us. God's operation, and way of doing things. His will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Certainly, something happened to the earth, and all Satanic power that had authority in Heaven. Hard to say what that was exactly, but the Kingdom of God brought by the King of Kings changed Satan's position.

Thy Kingdom come, they will be done
on earth, as it is in Heaven.
Jesus said casting out devils, and Healing were a sign that God's Kingdom had come to earth, and now it was possible for God's will to be done on earth, as it is in Heaven.

How many Wheelchairs do you think are needed in Heaven?

The authority over demonic Power had now come. Something changed. Jesus made this statement to us.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you;..............................

Satan falling from Heaven, and the authority given to us, with the Kingdom of God coming to earth is when Satan was cast out.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Israel or Mary? the Women. REV 12:

The Women would have to be Israel. Jesus the male child whom Satan had a hard time locating. We see some of Satan's limitations here, and God Out smarting him. Had Satan known who Jesus really was, he would not have also Killed him. Once again, we see some limitations in Satan's thinking. Satan being devoid of all Wisdom, simply can't see anything past his own lusts. He is not that bright.

Antichrist all reaching authority:

I did not disregard All Nations, I did consider it. All the nations are now corrupted.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

All means all, when I read it.

Satan is not just out to kill God's people. Satan don't really care if your dead, or hurt, just as long as your out of his way. His nature is to suit himself, and to accomplish His own desires.
The Antichrist has a very limited time to accomplish his authority. He has a good chunk of the planet who is not in league with him.

The Antichrist is another one of Satan's failures, just like his other past failures. God's Wrath is being poured out on the planet also at this time, the whole theme of REV is God dealing with man. Satan just happens to be in the mix. Satan with defined goals and targets, such as setting up in Israel, means He knows he won't get the whole planet without strategy to take on key objectives. He runs out of time, and even God hinders him with the two witnesses.

The seals....... and Horses.
The last seal changes the sun, and whole sky...... they are in order.

Rev 6 is not in the Tribulation story, it's just a list of the seals. Visions are like that. Things don't have to be in specific order . If they where, we would not be here on the forums, as we would have nothing to type....

If you believe some have already been released, then I have not looked into that enough to prove it or disprove it.

------------------------------------------------------------

David777 Departure.

Yes brother, I gave you the two Greek words that make up apostasia
That word was only used one other time in Acts 21:21, they departed from Moses teachings.

that day shall not come was also added by the translators in attempt to fill in and make more clear the passage......Thank you translators.

So, concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus, and gathering us up, the Departure must come first, and the AC revealed.

Which Harmonizes with what Paul said concerning the restrainer.

The Mystery of sin now does work.........only that he will let.........

I will build my church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail..... The Holy Spirit is sent to reprove the Word of sin, and where sin abounds, Grace will abound even more.......

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The anointed Church, with our prayer for governments, and for each other, or moral standards, and the Head of the Church, Jesus working through us on earth, has to be removed, if Satan is going to be able to operate in the power he needs to.

This fits with using apostasia as departure, it fits the two Greek words that where put together to make the Word apostasia.

I thank those who actually took all the time to read this and consider.
Agree or not, this is far more educational than watching TV all day.

Jesus Is Lord.

lecoop · Feb 17, 2012

Brother Mike said:
Hey brothers....... Mike really did not want to come here and debate, I actually posted when some post where reported and Chad posted, having just banned another Member which deserved it. Lots of people read what we post every day, compared to the few of us that give light in the Word. Chad wants thing in the truth, with thought and care.

I came in hopes to calm the thread down, and keep everyone happy.

Tribulation is a specific time God gave of seven years to accomplish his goals. Jesus said he beheld Satan fall like lightning. Rev 12 is a past event. So time is short means what? a couple thousand years?

When Jesus came to earth, He brought the Kingdom of God, that abides in us. God's operation, and way of doing things. His will be done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Certainly, something happened to the earth, and all Satanic power that had authority in Heaven. Hard to say what that was exactly, but the Kingdom of God brought by the King of Kings changed Satan's position.

Thy Kingdom come, they will be done
on earth, as it is in Heaven.
Jesus said casting out devils, and Healing were a sign that God's Kingdom had come to earth, and now it was possible for God's will to be done on earth, as it is in Heaven.

How many Wheelchairs do you think are needed in Heaven?

The authority over demonic Power had now come. Something changed. Jesus made this statement to us.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you;..............................

Satan falling from Heaven, and the authority given to us, with the Kingdom of God coming to earth is when Satan was cast out.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Israel or Mary? the Women. REV 12:

The Women would have to be Israel. Jesus the male child whom Satan had a hard time locating. We see some of Satan's limitations here, and God Out smarting him. Had Satan known who Jesus really was, he would not have also Killed him. Once again, we see some limitations in Satan's thinking. Satan being devoid of all Wisdom, simply can't see anything past his own lusts. He is not that bright.

Antichrist all reaching authority:

I did not disregard All Nations, I did consider it. All the nations are now corrupted.

Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

All means all, when I read it.

Satan is not just out to kill God's people. Satan don't really care if your dead, or hurt, just as long as your out of his way. His nature is to suit himself, and to accomplish His own desires.
The Antichrist has a very limited time to accomplish his authority. He has a good chunk of the planet who is not in league with him.

The Antichrist is another one of Satan's failures, just like his other past failures. God's Wrath is being poured out on the planet also at this time, the whole theme of REV is God dealing with man. Satan just happens to be in the mix. Satan with defined goals and targets, such as setting up in Israel, means He knows he won't get the whole planet without strategy to take on key objectives. He runs out of time, and even God hinders him with the two witnesses.

The seals....... and Horses.
The last seal changes the sun, and whole sky...... they are in order.

Rev 6 is not in the Tribulation story, it's just a list of the seals. Visions are like that. Things don't have to be in specific order . If they where, we would not be here on the forums, as we would have nothing to type....

If you believe some have already been released, then I have not looked into that enough to prove it or disprove it.

------------------------------------------------------------

David777 Departure.

Yes brother, I gave you the two Greek words that make up apostasia
That word was only used one other time in Acts 21:21, they departed from Moses teachings.

that day shall not come was also added by the translators in attempt to fill in and make more clear the passage......Thank you translators.

So, concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus, and gathering us up, the Departure must come first, and the AC revealed.

Which Harmonizes with what Paul said concerning the restrainer.

The Mystery of sin now does work.........only that he will let.........

I will build my church and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail..... The Holy Spirit is sent to reprove the Word of sin, and where sin abounds, Grace will abound even more.......

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

The anointed Church, with our prayer for governments, and for each other, or moral standards, and the Head of the Church, Jesus working through us on earth, has to be removed, if Satan is going to be able to operate in the power he needs to.

This fits with using apostasia as departure, it fits the two Greek words that where put together to make the Word apostasia.

I thank those who actually took all the time to read this and consider.
Agree or not, this is far more educational than watching TV all day.

Jesus Is Lord.

"Tribulation is a specific time God gave of seven years to accomplish his goals. Jesus said he beheld Satan fall like lightning. Rev 12 is a past event. So time is short means what? a couple thousand years?"

Brother Mike, why did Jesus catch SAtan falling as lightning? Did you not get the context? What had just happened? Jesus had sent out the 12 to cast out devils and raise the dead. This is NOT what Satan anticipated: suddenly there were 12 Jesus' walking around casting out devils! OF COURSE he had to come and see for himself. THAT is why he came so quickly!

Sorry, but the war in heaven is STILL FUTURE. Satan is at this very moment accusing the saints before God. But that war is placed in chapter 12 for a reason! It is places EXACTLY after the 7th trumpet. Michael has been waiting a LONG TIME to hear that 7th trumpet, for that marks the END of Satan's reign as the god of this world. Why? What is it about the 7th trumpet that marks the end?

You see, the 7th trumpet marks the END of the first 6000 years since Adam. It marks the TURNING of millennials. It is the END of the one 1000 years and the beginning of another. It marks the END of Adam's 6000 year lease (the scroll in chapter 5). You see, if no one had been found worthy to break the seals, Satan would remain god of this world forever. THANK GOD FOREVER that Jesus was found worthy to break the seals, and start the ball rolling for the 7th trumpet, when Adam's lease would end, and the devils ONLY hold on the earth ENDS. NO wonder then immediately after the 7th trumpet, Michael goes to work casting him DOWN from the high places. NO WONDER the kingdoms of the world transfer to Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

WE could be as little as 3 1/2 years from that 7th trumpet now!

Time is short means that ALL IS READY in heaven for the Bride to come. We are probably talking months, not years. Did you hear that coming in 2014/2015, will be a tetrad of blood red moons, (4 in a row) all on an anniversary date of Jewish feasts (an EXTREMELY rare event) with a total eclipse of the sun between the middle two? I am convinced this is the sign of Joel 2, the sun turning dark and the moon into blood before that great and dreadful day of the Lord. We are only waiting on the Father to say "go."

"Certainly, something happened to the earth, and all Satanic power that had authority in Heaven. Hard to say what that was exactly, but the Kingdom of God brought by the King of Kings changed Satan's position."

I am not sure I understand what you are hinting at. Satan is STILL the god of this present world. But what changed, now there are TWO kingdoms on the earth: the spiritual kingdom of the Body of Christ. There can be NO doubt, we are restraining the revealing of the man of sin. Yes, certainly it is possible for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, but that can happen ONLY when some born again believer has FAITH to bring it to pass. It certainly does not happy automatically. There is MUCH here that is NOT His will.

"The authority over demonic Power had now come. Something changed. " YES!!! Born again people are here,some with the anointing upon them - the SAME anointing that came upon Jesus and Elijah, for example. It is the anointing that the devil fears the most! He hates it - for it is the anointing that breaks the yoke (of bondage).

Please understand, that war in heaven is STILL FUTURE. Satan STILL accuses us before the Father.

"He [Satan] is not that bright." HALLELUJAH!!! Very true. But we have NO CHANCE against Him unless we walk in the Spirit.

"by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. "

When the Beast gets the image set up, and the mark, and the false prophet performing miracles, the deception will be greater than has EVER been seen on earth before. Yes, certainly all will be deceived except those whose names are written in heaven. You do understand, this great deception will be coming from JERUSALEM - God's holy city - polluted and becomes the home of every bad thing?

"The Antichrist has a very limited time to accomplish his authority. He has a good chunk of the planet who is not in league with him. "

He will have 3 1/2 years to rise to power, defeating three kings. But then he will have 42 months to use that power and authority.

"God's Wrath is being poured out on the planet also at this time,"

Brilliant, Brother Mike!! SO MANY do not understand this. When the tribulation reaches its greatest level, God will be pouring out the vials.

In the end, of course the Antichrist fails. But what he will do will make the W.W. 2 holocaust seem insignificant.

"Rev 6 is not in the Tribulation story, it's just a list of the seals. Visions are like that. Things don't have to be in specific order . If they where, we would not be here on the forums, as we would have nothing to type....

"

He He he!! But they ARE in VERY specific order! John was maticulous (Actually God) to write things in the exact order they will come. For example, everything in one chapter will certainly come to pass AFTER things in any previous chapter. (Parenthesis are a minor exception.)

The secret to the timing of the seals in in the context, the vision of chapters 4 & 5. Did you see my three questions? So far no one ans attempted. Just overlooked - as are most of my posts.

Coop

David777 · Feb 17, 2012

Hello Lecoop.

Greek-English dictionary: LSJ, MiddleLiddell, frequency 28 times, definition - defection, revolt.

Common usage at the time of the writing of the New Testament.

Koine Greek "apostasia" means defection, revolt. The Koine Greek language is somewhat precise Lecoop.

Precise defintion of defection.

Defection-To abandon a position or association, often to join an opposing group. More in line with falling away.

Lecoop, you preferred departure.

Defintion of departure - 1) The act of leaving. 2) A starting out, as on a trip or a new course of action. Not consistent with falling away.

They are in fact different words, defection is the precise definition of apostasia in ancient manuscripts.

Departure means to leave on a journey. This defintion of apostasia is not supported by the Bible translations.

Lets examine three translations of apostasia in three different Bibles.
Please note the scholars who translate must conform to the precise
definitions of the Greek words.

King James 2000 Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

American King James Version
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

American Standard Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Each translation conforms to the precise meaning of apostasia to defect, fall from, fall away.

Your erroneous translation of apostasia may be due to a theological position Lecoop.

Perhaps you would be open with us and state your primary theological position.

Any other questions regarding this text I will joyfully answer.

lecoop · Feb 17, 2012

David777 said:
Greek-English dictionary: LSJ, MiddleLiddell, frequency 28 times, definition - defection, revolt.

Common usage at the time of the writing of the New Testament.

Koine Greek "apostasia" means defection, revolt. The Koine Greek language is somewhat precise Lecoop.

Precise defintion of defection.

Defection-To abandon a position or association, often to join an opposing group. More in line with falling away.

Lecoop, you preferred departure.

Defintion of departure - 1) The act of leaving. 2) A starting out, as on a trip or a new course of action. Not consistent with falling away.

They are in fact different words, defection is the precise definition of apostasia in ancient manuscripts.

Departure means to leave on a journey. This defintion of apostasia is not supported by the Bible translations.

Lets examine three translations of apostasia in three different Bibles.
Please note the scholars who translate must conform to the precise
definitions of the Greek words.

King James 2000 Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

American King James Version
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

American Standard Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

Each translation conforms to the precise meaning of apostasia to defect, fall from, fall away.

Your erroneous translation of apostasia may be due to a theological position Lecoop.

Perhaps you would be open with us and state your primary theological position.

Any other questions regarding this text I will joyfully answer.

"Liddell and Scott Dictionary authors note Apostasia is translated as "spacial departure" in one case in the 6th century."

It is a compound word that certainly CAN mean "departure."

Perhaps, David, most of the translators had a "theological position."

Please, David, show us how this definition of apostasia fits the context of the word, the entire passage and the theme of the passage.

Due to verses 6,7,& 8, apostasia MUST BE the entity that is removed or "taken out of the way," so the man of sin can be removed.

But maybe we need to get more basic yet. Please David, tell us, in verse 3B, has the man of sin been revealed, or not?

Coop

David777 · Feb 17, 2012

Hello Lecoop.

I asked for your theological position, you did not reply.

Before I answer your questions, I do expect a reply.

Yours in Christ.

lecoop · Feb 17, 2012

David777 said:
I asked for your theological position, you did not reply.

Before I answer your questions, I do expect a reply.

Yours in Christ.

David, I don't have a "position" and then try to make a scripture "fit."

My ONLY goal here is to determine what was the intent of the Author.
As I study this verse in depth, and meditate on it - I come to the conclusion it gives me. Then I don't fight that position; I BELIEVE what it tells me.

I KNOW the theme of this passage is the gathering, i.e.. the rapture.
I KNOW from verses 6-8, and 3B that whatever the meaning of apostasia, Paul and the Holy Spirit HAD to mean what was described in verses 6-8, as the one restraining the man of sin.

As hard as I try, I cannot see how a falling away from something, fits either the theme or the one "taken out of the way." Therefore, I HAVE to believe what this verse is telling me. The departure or departing has to be the one restraining, and I an convinced that has the be the church. First, it fits the theme. Second it fits the entire context.
Finally, in 1 Thes. Paul DID talk about a SIGNIFICANT departure, i.e. the rapture. But try as I might, I cannot find a significant falling away from something in 1 Thes.

Finally, does what this verse seem to say, according to the above, fit the other scriptures in the bible about the rapture? If we study 1 Thes. 5, we find that the rapture MUST come before the Day of the Lord. Does this fit with what 2 Thes. 2 seem to say? Yes it does. I know where the Day of the Lord begins in Revelation: with the 7th seal. Does this interpretation of 2 Thes. 2 fit what I read in Revelation? I see the great crowd shown in chapter 7 as the raptured church, in heaven just before the 7th seal. Therefore I see Paul in two places in total agreement with John.

Therefore, my "position" is exactly what I see the scriptures telling me: God is coming for His bride BEFORE the 70th week and Day of the Lord begins. I did not come to these verses with preconceived glasses. I determined to come with a blank slate, and allow God to teach me what HIS intent was. I don't care about men's opinions, or theories: the ONLY thing I am interested in is the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit.

I find this pretrib rapture clearly shown in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, 2 Thes 2, and in Revelation. What I cannot understand is why ANYONE believes anything different.

Coop

Brother Mike · Feb 17, 2012

Depature.

David777... I did give you the two Greek words that make up Apostiasa.
It was used only one other time for a departure from Moses teachings.

Another Word would have better suited here.

parapiptō
to fall aside, that is, (figuratively) to apostatize: - fall away.

The concept is Do not be shaken in Mind, or troubled, about the Lord's coming to gather his people.

There will be a departure first, and the antichrist will be revealed.

If Apostiasa meant mass church members going astray from the truth, then that does not cover the topic of being troubled in heart or shaken in mind. The comfort comes because they are told they will be Out of here before the Antichrist even comes.

Even so, the Independent Greek studies I have looked at have had issues with this word anyway, and everyone agrees it means to depart.

Even so, Paul continues.............

2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Well, if Apostiasa did not mean departure and Jesus coming for the Church, then they could not possibly have guessed what withholdeth.

They understood what Paul was talking about. If Paul meant apostasy of the church turning from the truth, then everything is still here as before, with nothing changed, and no concept of what is Withholding.

Jesus Is Lord.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 17, 2012

Brother Mike · Feb 17, 2012

Thank you Eric.

The following verses explain that the Holy Spirit would reprove sin in the world after he came and indwelt the Christians. That is why I believe the Holy Spirit is he who letteth in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.

Thank you Eric........at least we agree there is a rapture before the AC comes, some have not gotten to that stage yet.

The Holy Spirit does reprove the World of sin.

It's through us that power is given on High though, its the greater one in us than all the devils in the World. It's us the Lord went with confirming the word with signs...... It's the anointed Church, we by the Power of the Holy Spirit cast out devils....... The Holy Spirit is our Helper, he helps us.

The Holy Spirit will still have work to do on the earth though..

God said not by my might by by my Spirit......God still has to have his Spirit here.

So, if the HE is the Holy Spirit, then we are stuck here without the Spirit of God, left and forsaken.........

If He is Jesus the Head of the Church, then the Body also has to go with the Head.

I also thought it was just the Holy Spirit. I even got mad at someone that told me it was the Church one time.

It's the Head of the Church that is removed, he takes himself out of the way, and no more word confirmed in those left on the earth with signs following.

Jesus Is Lord.

David777 · Feb 18, 2012

Hello Mike and Lecoop.

Sorry I take so long to reply, I have other matters to attend to.

Where were we, that's right your questions regarding
the restrainer, and the pretrib rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

No pretrib rapture here, it is in fact a simultaneous rapture of those asleep and alive.
This occurs on the day the Lord returns "caught up together".

Now lets look at the the apparent problem of the restrainer who is taken out of the way.

Here is the text in question.

2 Thessalonians 2

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains
will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the
breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The text above refers to "He who now restrains", this is singular identity.
We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17 that it cannot be the church that was previously raptured
as it is still present "those alive". It most certainly cannot be the Holy Spirit otherwise
no one would believe "those alive" when Jesus returns. Both versions would represent a corruption of the text.

Now it is starting to become interesting, you are both glued to the screen. Better than watching TV Mike,
I can hear your thoughts, ok smarty pants David777 who is the restrainer.

After all the work I have contributed I must leave you with some homework before I answer the question.
Try and guess the answer.

We are left with only two possibilities:
1)______________
2)______________

This is you punishment for the poor translation of apostasia.

Brother Mike · Feb 18, 2012

Actually.

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The text above refers to "He who now restrains", this is singular identity.
We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17 that it cannot be the church that was previously raptured
as it is still present "those alive". It most certainly cannot be the Holy Spirit otherwise
no one would believe "those alive" when Jesus returns. Both versions would represent a corruption of the text.

David............ so, 1 Thess 4 we see a rapture of the church, so we get into 2 Thess, and since the rapture already occurred in 1 Thess, then 2 Thess must be talking about something else...... after all 1, comes before 2......

That sounds like good number counting to me........

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

ummm......Well, still good counting. I am not so sure about the scripture interpretation though.

and you bring up resurrection of the dead........Now we have to post tons of scriptures to figure out what is resurrected, Is man a spirit that can't be killed, or is there soul sleep...... Is it just the body of man?

This will take several threads to sort here, and looking at the Page 22 of the Hell for non believers thread, where many have not even come to a conclusion about us being spirits or not....... Page 22........mind you....

and.......

This is you punishment for the poor translation of apostasia.

Well, possible, but what I look for is someone that actually takes the time to look at the evidence........ and I have looked a many different Greek scholars work, and they all agree it means departure/ insurrection. Now what else you want to add to that seems debatable.

Even some bible translations did not really know what to do with the Word.

I suppose if we get it sorted here once and for all, a medal would be due to all of us. With God, all things are possible.

Jesus Is Lord.

David777 · Feb 18, 2012

Hello Mike.

In 2 Thess Paul is reminding the Thessalonians of what he said in 1 Thess.

2 Thessalonians 2

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Lets be fair Mike we are only discussing 1 & 2 Thess not every other book or letter in the Bible.

You know that Paul said those asleep in Christ will be raised with us who are alive. It all happens on the great and terrifying day of the Lord. It is not pretrib, this is not what Paul states.

So what exactly is the problem Mike?

You did not complete the homework assignment.

David777 · Feb 18, 2012

Hell again Mike.

Scholars disagree on the correct translation of apostasia.

Well lets just check to see whether that is actually the case.

I checked 15 translations, only one used departure as a translation.

I told you already the common usage translates- desertion,revolt.

Perhaps you should check the translations, here they are.

New International Version (©1984)
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for [that day will not come] until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. New Living Translation (©2007)
Don't be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed--the one who brings destruction.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
International Standard Version (©2008)
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it shall not come unless the rebellion takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Let no man deceive you by any means, to the effect that surely no revolt will first come and The Man of Sin, The Son of Destruction, be revealed,
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Don't let anyone deceive you about this in any way. [That day cannot come unless] a revolt takes place first, and the man of sin, the man of destruction, is revealed.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come the falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
American King James Version
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
American Standard Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Douay-Rheims Bible
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Darby Bible Translation
Let not any one deceive you in any manner, because it will not be unless the apostasy have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition;
English Revised Version
let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,
Webster's Bible Translation
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Weymouth New Testament
Let no one in any way deceive you, for that day cannot come without the coming of the apostasy first, and the appearing of the man of sin, the son of perdition, who sets himself against,
World English Bible
Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
Young's Literal Translation
let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

kevinlb63 · Feb 18, 2012

The KJV English phrase "falling away", in 2 Thess. 2:3, is the one Greek word "apostasia", and its basic meaning is to "depart from" or "go away".

The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand".
Literally, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from", or "depart", or "change state or standing from one state to another".
"Apostasia" was used in extra Biblical Greek literature to describe political revolt, or a "going away from the establishment" and in the Septuagint, or Greek Old Testament, when the Jews would "go away" from God to worship other gods. "Apostasia" is only used one other time in the New Testament, in Acts 21:21 to describe "forsaking", or "going away from" the teachings of Moses.

i agree with you so far because it is what i find in the scripture over and over there is not a pre tribulation rapture
!n 2 Thessilonians it is made clear the word after is used! now i will put up the scripture
2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: it like the pretriberers want to deceive poeple and for what i dont now! it is! not! biblical! in any chapter. thay over look the word after over and over

the word after is in matthew 24 and mark13 and at both times it is jesus that tells us this . so i will take jesus on his word and not a mans word.
9Even him, whose coming is after! the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, { note the him it is talking about is jesus!! whos coming is after}
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

lecoop · Feb 18, 2012

Brother Mike said:
Thank you Eric........at least we agree there is a rapture before the AC comes, some have not gotten to that stage yet.

The Holy Spirit does reprove the World of sin.

It's through us that power is given on High though, its the greater one in us than all the devils in the World. It's us the Lord went with confirming the word with signs...... It's the anointed Church, we by the Power of the Holy Spirit cast out devils....... The Holy Spirit is our Helper, he helps us.

The Holy Spirit will still have work to do on the earth though..

God said not by my might by by my Spirit......God still has to have his Spirit here.

So, if the HE is the Holy Spirit, then we are stuck here without the Spirit of God, left and forsaken.........

If He is Jesus the Head of the Church, then the Body also has to go with the Head.

I also thought it was just the Holy Spirit. I even got mad at someone that told me it was the Church one time.

It's the Head of the Church that is removed, he takes himself out of the way, and no more word confirmed in those left on the earth with signs following.

Jesus Is Lord.

I STILL disagree. The church, the body of Christ, would be helpless to restrain even ourselves, much less the Antichrist, without the Holy Spirit WITHIN us and UPON us as the anointing (Acts 2:4; Acts 8:16-17, Acts 10:44-46, Acts 19:6).

In fact, of these two, it is the anointing upon the Christians that have it, that destroys the yolk. But these two, the Holy Spirit within and the Holy Spirit upon the church that is the restraining force. When the Bride is taken, all that is left will be Luke warm Christians, Christians with unforgiveness, Christians that are thieves, Christians that fornicate, etc. These do not have the anointing. So when the bride goes up, SO DOES the POWER of the Holy Spirit on this earth. The church is the bride, female; while the Holy Spirit is HE, male. It MUST be Him, but yet He has given all authority to US, the church. So He cannot restrain the Antichrist without the church with whom He works through. When we are gone, HE is gone, in respect to anointed believers.

Of course we know that the 12 were born again when Jesus breathed upon them and said, "receive ye the Holy Spirit." But at that time Pentecost had not yet come. So He was IN them before Pentecost, but the Holy Spirit UPON as the anointing did not come until Pentecost. It is THAT respect of the Holy Spirit that will leave with the church. I believe it will be just like it was BEFORE the day of Pentecost after the bride is taken out of the way.

Jesus NEEDS us as the body of Christ, to work and move on the earth, because He gave authority and dominion to the church. But we NEED Him desperately! Without the Holy Spirit as the Paraclete, we are helpless. Together we are a mighty moving force on planet earth: OUR authority as born again people born on the earth, and HIS POWER.

Coop

Brother Mike · Feb 18, 2012

Disagreement........

Lecoop, I see a lot of this on these forums...........

I agree!!!! You have my stamp of approval.

I don't agree!!! here is why......

I don't see very many of these..................

I never looked at it that way, thank you for pointing that out.

With our Pride, and the thought that we might be wrong seems to terrify us. My doctrine is right!!!! Yes sir.....

Not even close, Paul said he see's through the glass darkly.... I wonder where that might put us?

Now brother....................... listen to reason.......

I don't believe we are a Bride...... I can find one scripture by Paul that someone may conclude that. I do see the new bride being the new city in REV though. But if you want to be a "Bride" fine with me, no arguments there.

MY observation is that God has always put his Spirit on people, The Holy Spirit works with us, and in us. Without us, our understanding, our anointing, sin takes completely over. Nothing left to restrain.

I have no doubt where the power comes from, it's not us..

It is THAT respect of the Holy Spirit that will leave with the church. I believe it will be just like it was BEFORE the day of Pentecost after the bride is taken out of the way.

Jesus NEEDS us as the body of Christ, to work and move on the earth, because He gave authority and dominion to the church. But we NEED Him desperately! Without the Holy Spirit as the Paraclete, we are helpless. Together we are a mighty moving force on planet earth: OUR authority as born again people born on the earth, and HIS POWER.

I never said the Holy Spirit leaves us..... Many that call him Lord will not be ready for his coming and be left.... (Matt 24)
I said the Holy Spirit will not leave the Earth, we leave. The Holy Spirit will still function as He did in the OT. The Power and authority given to the Church by Jesus will be absent from the Earth.

Upon this Rock, I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail. Once the Church is gone, Hell is free to prevail.

Jesus Is Lord.

==================================
Kevin:

The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand".
Literally, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from", or "depart", or "change state or standing from one state to another".
"Apostasia" was used in extra Biblical Greek literature to describe political revolt, or a "going away from the establishment" and in the Septuagint, or Greek Old Testament, when the Jews would "go away" from God to worship other gods. "Apostasia" is only used one other time in the New Testament, in Acts 21:21 to describe "forsaking", or "going away from" the teachings of Moses.

Yes, we covered that. However, if you want to believe in some post trib rapture, and Jesus lying about the Gates of Hell prevailing against us, removing all his anointing and authority from us. This understanding of the Greek word can not be accepted, and it's by divine intervention of God and understanding of the anointing that will only change one's views.....

Jesus Is Lord.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 18, 2012

He that letteth

Brother Mike said:
Thank you Eric........at least we agree there is a rapture before the AC comes, some have not gotten to that stage yet.

The Holy Spirit does reprove the World of sin.

It's through us that power is given on High though, its the greater one in us than all the devils in the World. It's us the Lord went with confirming the word with signs...... It's the anointed Church, we by the Power of the Holy Spirit cast out devils....... The Holy Spirit is our Helper, he helps us.

The Holy Spirit will still have work to do on the earth though..

God said not by my might by by my Spirit......God still has to have his Spirit here.

So, if the HE is the Holy Spirit, then we are stuck here without the Spirit of God, left and forsaken.........

If He is Jesus the Head of the Church, then the Body also has to go with the Head.

I also thought it was just the Holy Spirit. I even got mad at someone that told me it was the Church one time.

It's the Head of the Church that is removed, he takes himself out of the way, and no more word confirmed in those left on the earth with signs following.

Jesus Is Lord.[/QUOTE

Brother Mike,

At the rapture Jesus comes down from heaven to call the body of believers up to meet him in the air so he that letteth who was on the

earth could not be Jesus. In fact the Holy Spirit could not come till Jesus went back to heaven John 16:7-8. I believe God will cause the

Holy Spirit to stop restraining evil after the rapture.

David777 · Feb 18, 2012

Hello.

Who is the restrainer?

Who is taken out of the way?

Brother Mike · Feb 18, 2012

Restrainer......

David777
I think we mentioned it's Jesus, the Head, taking his Body Us, or it's the Holy Spirit. That would be the "HE"

Jesus Is Lord.

Welcome!

Mid-tribulation

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Members Online

Trending content

Newest members

Stay Connected