Mid-tribulation

kevinlb63 · Feb 11, 2012

you have read to much oliver green!

rodd · Feb 11, 2012

lecoop said:
Very good, Rodd, as far as you went. MOST CERTAINLY there are two comings; one FOR his Bride and the next WITH His bride. We are in total agreement.

His coming WITH His bride is shown clearly in Matthew 24 AFTER (Kevin's favorite word) the tribulation of those days, and in Rev. 19, on the white horse.

His coming FOR His bride is shown in 1 and 2 thes, and in Rev. 7.

Rev. 7: John saw a HUGE group, too large to number, around the throne in heaven. EVERYTHING about this group sounds like the raptured church - that is all but two words. John is told that this HUGE group comes "out of great tribulation."

Just about 100% of people, when they read these words associate them with the days Jesus spoke of that come right after the abomination; and indeed, Jesus did use "great tribulation." But for Jesus, those two words WERE NOT ENOUGH: He went on to say that no time very before or after would be as terrible as those days of great tribulation following the abomination.

HOWEVER: in Rev. 7, John has not even started the 70th week, much less got to the days of GT. Therefore, John is CERTAINLY not telling us these this huge group, too large to number, saw the Beast, were killed by the beast, or was even IN "those days" of GT that Jesus spoke of. Indeed, those days won't come for another 3 1/2 years. This group is seen in heaven BEFORE (opposite of after) the 70th week or "trib" actually starts. So HOW could these people have come out of Jesus' days of GT?

Indeed, they COULD NOT! No, all John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be dying for their testimony around the world. How can "tribulation" become any greater that one being killed because they love Jesus? They cannot be killed twice! So John is NOT talking about the same GT that Jesus was talking about. At the time of the rapture will be NO WHERE NEAR as terrible as the days following the abomination, for at that time Satan will be cast down with GREAT hatred and anger, and WOE to those on the earth.

Therefore, with a clear understanding of John's chronology, we see a CLEAR picture of a PRETRIB rapture.

Coop

No! the phrase "who are these" denotes the smaller group (144,000 jews, who have come out of the tribulation, just as it says, gone through) now joining the larger group (the church), remember we have two groups for a reason!!!

They haven't arrived at the same time!
If you understand that, you'll nearly there.

That Chapter 7 obviously isn't chronologically linked to following chapters, that's the thing with the revelation it switches back and forward a little.

One for Bro Mike.

As for Elijah and Enoch, church tradition through the ages hedges their bets that it's most likely these two guys that cause Antichrist plenty of trouble, they didn't die, so they have an appointment with death, but they get resurrected before their enemies, Also, IMO it was these two that took on the occult in their day, so I think God in his wisdom has them ready to do it again.

Rodd.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 11, 2012

The Lord will come to earth at mid tribulation

The Lord will come to earth at mid tribulation

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided
in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

At the middle of the tribulation the antichrist will lead the armies of the world against Israel because they will not worship him. As they close in on Israel the Lord will come to the earth in the middle of the tribulation and split the Mount of Olives so Israel can flee.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah:

(future event called the second coming of Christ) and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

This event is discussed in Revelation 12:15-16KJV and Isaiah 16:1-5KJV. Israel flees to the river ford on the Arnon River one third of the way south on Jordan’s side of the Dead Sea. This event happens when the devil is cast to the earth and he begins to persecute Israel for a time , times and half a time Revelation 12:7-16KJV This is also the time of the redemption of the two witnesses Rev 11:7-14KJV, the 144,000 Rev 14:1-5KJV and the dead saints from the first half of the tribulation Rev 15:1-3KJV.

lecoop · Feb 11, 2012

kevinlb63 said:
you have read to much oliver green!

Did I ever quote from anyone but the Bible? I have NEVER read Oliver Green.

Look, I am sorry if you cannot tell the difference between daily tribulation and "those days" of "great tribulation."

Matthew 24
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It is very sad you cannot understand, these days are VERY SPECIAL days of a different kind of tribulation, caused by Satan Himself.

Rev 12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

What does he do once cast down?

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Who is the "woman?" Where did Jesus come from? OF COURSE, from Israel. The woman is the very same people Jesus spoke of to FLEE: those living in Judea.

What ELSE does Satan do? (He is foiled in his attempt to get the woman.)

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the [HIGH-LIGHT]remnant [/HIGH-LIGHT]of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Notice there are they who have the testimony of Jesus Christ: they are HIS PEOPLE. Why "remnant?" What does this word mean? It means the part LEFT OVER, after something happened to the whole. We might as well make it clear: it means the part LEFT BEHIND. The MAIN GROUP went out with the PRE-TRIB rapture. Only a REMNANT is left.

Kevin, it is too bad you don't believe any of this. It is written as plain as God could make it, but UNBELIEF is keeping you from understanding.

This is the plain word of God, pure and simple. The devil is cast down from the heavenlies, where he continually accuses us before the Father. He is VERY ANGRY. He takes out that anger on PEOPLE, those LEFT BEHIND. And of course any who turn to God AFTER (there is your word again) the rapture.

Lest there be any mis-understanding, WHAT will the Antichrist do that will create :those days" of "great tribulation?"

Rev 13
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This is GREAT TRIBULATION: BOW of DIE. Which will be chosen? Great tribulation means people put under GREAT PRESSURE. Without a doubt, a husband or wife will be tortured in from of the spouse, to get the other to BOW. But this is not the end! It gets worse:

16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

NOW can you see the difference between someone at work cussing you out because you love Jesus, compared to the above events coming soon into your life?

What does hunger do to a person? After a few days, they will do ALMOST ANYTHING for something to eat. Will they BOW? Will they accept the mark?

Kevin, you have CHOSEN to remain behind, meaning, getting LEFT BEHIND. So you will CERTAINLY face these things. Are you ready? Have you tried a 7 day fast, or 20 day fast, just to see what it is like to be that hungry? How many times so far in your daily "tribulations" have you been threatened with death unless you DENY CHRIST? I will guess NEVER. Yet you expect us to believe that all "tribulation" is the same? Kevin, WHAT WORLD do you live on? There is a VAST difference between the tribulations we must endure just because we are born again, compared to what is coming. Why in the world did Jesus add these words: "then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved...

Yet you expect us to believe that all "tribulation" is the same. Sorry, but I am going to believe JESUS. And I am EXPECTING Him to come for His bride any day - so I am WATCHING.

What are you doing?

Coop

lecoop · Feb 11, 2012

rodd said:
No! the phrase "who are these" denotes the smaller group (144,000 jews, who have come out of the tribulation, just as it says, gone through) now joining the larger group (the church), remember we have two groups for a reason!!!

They haven't arrived at the same time!
If you understand that, you'll nearly there.

That Chapter 7 obviously isn't chronologically linked to following chapters, that's the thing with the revelation it switches back and forward a little.

One for Bro Mike.

As for Elijah and Enoch, church tradition through the ages hedges their bets that it's most likely these two guys that cause Antichrist plenty of trouble, they didn't die, so they have an appointment with death, but they get resurrected before their enemies, Also, IMO it was these two that took on the occult in their day, so I think God in his wisdom has them ready to do it again.

Rodd.

My my! Rodd! Please read and head:

ANY THEORY that must rearrange John's GOD GIVEN chronology is IMMEDIATELY suspect and WILL be proven wrong.

WHO told you that Revelation was not chronological? Who gives you permission to rearrange?

DId you not notice that John NUMBERED the seals, 1,2,3,4,5,6 - 7? Did you not notice that John NUMBERED the trumpets, 1,2,3,4,5,6 - 7? Did you not notice that John NUMBERED the vials, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7? Did you not notice that John NUMBERED the woes, 1,2,3?

WHY did He number all these? For the purpose of chronology! With all this proof that John wrote this in a VERY (extremely) chronological manner, why would ANYONE think they should re-arrange? NO NO NO! We don't have authority to re-arrange the way God wrote it! NO WONDER we disagree.

Rev 7
9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, [HIGH-LIGHT]clothed with white robes[/HIGH-LIGHT], and palms in their hands;
10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

In comparison:

Rev 14
Revelation 14

1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Sorry, but the question, "who are these" refers back to the "great multitude" which no man could number. It cannot be anything else. This is ONE GROUP too large to number. It has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the 144,000. They have been sealed for their PROTECTION during the trumpet judgments. Then, they are seen LATER in heaven.

These are TWO TOTALLY different groups that get to heaven at a DIFFERENT time.

The group, too large to number, is the raptured church. THEY HAVE JUST ARRIVED. John did not get to see the rapture, but he got to see the effect: the BRIDE OF CHRIST around the throne. (While at the same time, the 144,000 will soon go through the trumpet judgments on earth.

OF COURSE they don't arrive at the same time! The 144,000 don't get there until AFTER THE MIDPOINT, as shown in chapter 14.

This group, the raptured church, gets there BEFORE the 70th week (and the wrath of God) begins.

Did you ever read 1 thes. 5 closely? Did you ever wonder what the "sudden destruction" was, that those living in darkness were faced with? Did you understand why those living in the light did NOT experience that "sudden destruction? Did you understand Paul when he wrote, "but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him?Do you understand this paradigm (two things brought close [parallel] so as to make a good comparison)? Paul brings these two groups, those living in darkness and those living in the light, right up iin front of our face, so to speak, so we can CLEARLY understand what happens to each group, when a SUDDENLY comes. Finally, do you understand WHAT this sudden event is? (If in doubt, back up into the last few verses of the previous chapter.)

For further study, compare 1 thes. 5 with the events of the 6th seal.
Then read carefully what was said to those under the altar at the 5th seal (the martyrs of the CHURCH age).

Rev 6
it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So what does this mean? Some were sawn in two. Some were fed to lions. Some lost their head. It simply CANNOT mean the manner in which they were killed. No, it means killed as CHURCH AGE martyrs. You see, if one is killed for their testimony one day after the rapture, they will be 70th week martyrs - a totally different group. So John is telling us they will have to wait for the FINAL or LAST church age martyr. When will that be? Of course, the last one killed before the rapture of the church.

For those that understand, John is giving us a STRONG HINT that the rapture will be included in the VERY NEXT EVENT mentioned.

Coop

rodd · Feb 11, 2012

Who gives me the right to say the Book of Revelation is not chronological????

Who gives you the the right, to say that it is????

The 'who are these"' obviously refers to the smaller group thats come on the heavenly scene after the fullness of the tribulation.
Therefore the angelic reply, these are they that went through the great tribulation.
OK! now it should make sense why there is two group in this heavenly scene.
The bible speaks of two people groups, Jew and Gentile, God has a plan to save a given number of Jews through the Tribulation, a remnent.

Doesn't that make more sense to you, that the text would refer to that????

Your last theory on Rev 6,
Again in heaven we have a spiritual scene of the souls of martyrs asking God to avenge them, guess they don't have glorified bodies at this stage.

OK, the fifth seal is the vision of Church perescution of the first 42 months of the 7yr tribulation period.
This parallels Rev 13:5-7, 3.5 years of suffering at the hands of the Antichrist, he will introduce laws banning true Christianity.
I believe that we're at the point in time of the black horse (false Global financial crisis), but very soon we'll have the pale and then quickly Antichrist rise to power and the 5th seal situation for believers.

lecoop · Feb 11, 2012

rodd said:
Who gives me the right to say the Book of Revelation is not chronological????

Who gives you the the right, to say that it is????

It is WRITTEN that way! It is the way GOD wrote it.

The 'who are these"' obviously refers to the smaller group thats come on the heavenly scene after the fullness of the tribulation.

Sorry, but that is not the way it is written. John FINISHED his narrative about the 144,000 and SWITCHED subjects.
Did you notice, John wrote, "9 After this I beheld...." This is John's typical way of changing the subject as he did many times.

Therefore the angelic reply, these are they that went through the great tribulation. OK! now it should make sense why there is two group in this heavenly scene.

No, certainly not, because this is not at all the intent of the author. You have mixed two subjects together. In this subject, John as left behind the 144,000 and is speaking ONLY about the huge crowd seen around the throne in heaven. To miss the two is very poor exegesis, and ends up with nonsense. Leave the quote, "these are those" with the group John put it with, the HUGE group too large to number. T^he truth is, tribulation that we are living with now will keep getting worse, until people are being put to death for their testimony around the world. It is that way in half the world today. So by the time we get to the rapture, it will be great tribulation. But it will NOT be the days of great tribulation spoken of by Jesus, for John has not yet even started the 70th week.

The bible speaks of two people groups, Jew and Gentile, God has a plan to save a given number of Jews through the Tribulation, a remnent.

Certainly it does. The 144,000 are only the FIRSTFRUITs, and will be raptured to heaven as firstfruits. But most of the Jews will turn to Jesus at the END of the 70th week - those that survive.

Doesn't that make more sense to you, that the text would refer to that????

Sorry, but your theory that God and John write things in the wrong order, and to understand you must rearrange, has left you will ideas that are not according to what is written. Just leave everything in the order God gave it, for it is RIGHT. In chapter 7, God is just about to begin the 70th week of Daniel, the time of "Jacob's trouble." (He had to work an EXTRA 7 years for the woman he loved.)

However, BEFORE God will open the 70th week, He must pull the bride out of the world, and take her to heaven. He has promised that we will NOT have an appointment with His wrath, which will start at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet judgment.

Next, He must seal the 144,000 for their protection. If they were born again at that time, they would have been caught up with the bride - but they were not.

So these two events MUST take place before the 70th week even begins. It will begin in the very next chapter, chapter 8.

Your last theory on Rev 6,
Again in heaven we have a spiritual scene of the souls of martyrs asking God to avenge them, guess they don't have glorified bodies at this stage.

Of course they don't! NO ONE of the Bride will get glorified bodies until the rapture. Keep in mind, Stephen was part of that group. That seal was broken in time for Stephen to be a part of it. Seals 1-5 were broken as soon as Jesus arrived in heaven after He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended.

OK, the fifth seal is the vision of Church perescution of the first 42 months of the 7yr tribulation period.

Absolutely not! If they were there only 7 years, they would KNOW that and have no reason to ask how long. Next, that theory does not fit the context, nor the answer given them: they are going to have to wait for the last of their group, the martyrs of the church age - and they have NO idea how long that will be. It has turned out to be nearly 2000 years. They had every reason to ask how long. As to the context, that would be the entire vision of the throne room found in chapters 4 and 5.
In short, and in context, John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended into heaven, after telling Mary not to touch Him. In other words, John was seeing BACK IN TIME to before Jesus rose from the dead, and up to the time He ascended. THIS sets the context for the first few seals. We have not arrived yet at the 6th seal. That is still in our future.

This parallels Rev 13:5-7, 3.5 years of suffering at the hands of the Antichrist, he will introduce laws banning true Christianity.

No, John has not yet even STARTED the 70th week yet! You have a serious urge to rearrange. But there is NO NEED! When you understand it, you will find it is in PERFECT chronological order AS WRITTEN.

I believe that we're at the point in time of the black horse (false Global financial crisis), but very soon we'll have the pale and then quickly Antichrist rise to power and the 5th seal situation for believers.

You can believe this if you wish, but you will be wrong. The four horsemen have been doing their thing for nearly 2000 years now. Did you notice that one horse rides alone, while three ride together?

Coop

Robert44 · Feb 11, 2012

rodd said:
Kevin,

In the West we all live under the Jewish Rotheschild and Rockerfeller banking systems, in fact our governments are under the control of these so called reserve banks that are privately owned, they're all franchises of the original Rotheschild organisation which developed centuries ago.
Because of this as a Christian, I obviously struggle, not between Jew and Palestinian, but between Jewish people and their Zionist elite leaders all around the globe.
I support the innocent Jew of course! but the other group that manipulate the West and subvert and enslave the nations(through false debt) or debt to them, I have nothing but contempt.
These are the sons of the Pharisees and Sadduces that turned to the dark side in their efforts to destroy the message of the gospel years ago.

But who are the real Jews? Scripture says, not those after the flesh!
Rom 2:28-29, tells us exactly who the real jews are. It's us! The Christians!
Rom 9:6, tells us it's not through natural descent are we of Israel, but through the grace of faith in Christ, only the re-born or regenerated are the true Israel.
Should we then be surprised that the Jewish Zionists are then capable of autrocities and Crimes against humanity?
I believe the Antichrist will and indeed has to be a Jew of the same ilke as these Zionists that command and control the financial status of nations.
The Roman Pope is most certainly the false prophet and represents the apostate false church that indeed decieves the nations.
We see its influence on the kings of the earth, but its influence is deminishing, therefore its destruction and the introduction of Occultism, the Image setup in the future temple.
As for the Roman king popes, isn't there supposed to be an eighth? Rev 17, Benedict is the seventh since the Lateran treaty that re-empowered the Catholic Church. FP should be the next Pope, 8th, or a re-named Benedict????....would be 8th???? Guess so!

Hope you understand most of this.

Rodd.

We christians are not Jews and never will be. but because of Christ there is now no wall of separation between us. Jews and gentiles one people in Christ but never think the church takes all of the promises for the jews now. or big probrems will come of that thinking.

rodd · Feb 11, 2012

The four horsemen of the apocalypse set up the situation that brings about the tribulation events, of the thast seven, they haven't been doing their thing for the past 2000years and we haven't been experiencing the tribulation for all that time.

The final seven are the years of tribulation, and these horseman represent sinister events that orchestrate that time.
Like I said, we are not their yet, we are witnessing the destruction of social economies right now, these are the effects of the blackhorse.
Intentional destruction of national economies with a view to enslave the masses through poverty.
The next one, the pale horse will be interesting when it comes, millions die through plague, if this happens will you believe then???

Robert44, Think if you read scripture you'll find out who the real Jew is, try Romans, something about circumcised hearts, you've probably read it to.

lecoop · Feb 11, 2012

rodd said:
The four horsemen of the apocalypse set up the situation that brings about the tribulation events, of the thast seven, they haven't been doing their thing for the past 2000years and we haven't been experiencing the tribulation for all that time.

With preconceived glasses, that is what most people think. But I doubt if there has been a ten year span in the last 1000 years that there has not been war somewhere in Europe, and a famine somewhere in Africa. But the big question is, what was the intent of the Author? Why did He put the vision of the throne room in the book? Just to fill up space? Why did He show a throne room where Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father. Why did He show a search for one worthy to break the seals, that ended in failure? Why was the Holy Spirit seen in the throne room, when Jesus said as soon as He ascended, He would send HIm down? All this was written as the CONTEXT of the first seals. It has been assumed for years that the 70th week will begin with the first seal - but that is not what John wrote. Many have assumed - incorrectly - that the first horse and rider were the Antichrist - yet God would NEVER use white to represent evil. There is a lot of false theories. But John wrote the truth - all we have to do is understand it.

The final seven are the years of tribulation, and these horseman represent sinister events that orchestrate that time.
Like I said, we are not their yet, we are witnessing the destruction of social economies right now, these are the effects of the blackhorse.
Intentional destruction of national economies with a view to enslave the masses through poverty.

Yet as I said, there has hardly been a few years where war has not broken out somewhere in Europe. I know for I researched it and I have a list of all the wars. It is truly unbelievable.

How many did the black plague kill in Europe? Some estimate that it was 1/3 of the population. That would be the work of the pale horse. He has been riding. The red horse, the black horse, and the pale horse have been LIMITED in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. We can be assured it will be the 1/4 that includes Israel. Go back and read Rev chapters 4 & 5, and ask youself WHEN? WHEN could the events shown to John have taken place? For example, WHEN was there a time that Jesus was NOT at the right hand of the Father?

The next one, the pale horse will be interesting when it comes, millions die through plague, if this happens will you believe then???

He has been riding for 2000 years - but as evil gets more prevalent He will gain more power and will certainly do as you suggest. There will probably be diseases come that we have never seen before.

Robert44, Think if you read scripture you'll find out who the real Jew is, try Romans, something about circumcised hearts, you've probably read it to.

That is SPIRITUAL. Just visit Israel and you will see MANY of them in person. Or just look at the camera of the wailing wall...

Coop

kevinlb63 · Feb 11, 2012

lecoop said:
Did I ever quote from anyone but the Bible? I have NEVER read Oliver Green.

Look, I am sorry if you cannot tell the difference between daily tribulation and "those days" of "great tribulation."

Matthew 24
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It is very sad you cannot understand, these days are VERY SPECIAL days of a different kind of tribulation, caused by Satan Himself.

It is funny that you would tell me that i dont understand. And then go and wright something and then judge me and ask me is i have fasted.
well if you consider i lost my oldest brother at the age of 19 and five years later my baby brother at the age of 19.
and then get run over by a car! rocky mountian spotted fever twice and lived. My mom raised us and she was blind.
these are small tribulations and i am here today buy the grace of god. i gave my life to him in 1984.
and every time the holy spirt comes on me he gives me the understanding of his word. and also
the understandy that there will be people like you! that take the scripture and turn it upside down just like you did with matthew 24
by putting verse 22 in front of 21 to make it seam like someone was removed before thy actually were.

21 For then shall be {great tribulation}, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor {ever shall be}.
22 And except those days should be {shortened},!!! there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's!!!! sake those days shall be
shortened. the elect that means thay are here at that time !!!!!!!!!!!!! so in short no pre trib sorry!

these are words in red!! a quote from christ and you turned them around to your needs to make it looks like you need to take your vanity
and go some where else.
It is WRITTEN that way! It is the way!! GOD wrote it. your Quote!!! so i will dust my feet!!!

rodd · Feb 12, 2012

Jesus speaks about the tribulation as, "those days".....not the last couple of Millenia........that concept is ridiculous.
In the Revelation the tribulation is clearly defined in terms of days......, when Jesus comes he spares the world from anniallation cutting short the days to preserve life.

About the Jews.
I don't know if the orthodox Jew impresses you somehow??...., maybe your deluded by their percieved piety, but they dispise Christ and are headed to hell, just like anyone who thinks their personal obedience gains them the grace of God!

The idea of Satan coming down cause he knows his time is short, just means that he is about to blow his cover, doesn't he walk up and on the surface of the earth, as said in Job?
He's been doing that for thousands of years and he's been here for thousands of years. Jesus confronted him in his ministry
Just means he's coming as Antichrist and marshalling his forces for the cosmic battle. The last seven is about his revealing.

Kevin
I agree with most of what your saying, only the elect that are saved because of the shortening of days are the Jews who go through the fullness of the seven years of tribulation. The 144,000 come to Christ possibly because of the witnesses and the catastropic events of judgement, and of course the gift of the Holy Spirit.
We only get to the first 3.5 years, after the peace treaty of 7yrs is ratified, that's the time of rapture IMO.

lecoop · Feb 12, 2012

kevinlb63 said:
lecoop said:

Did I ever quote from anyone but the Bible? I have NEVER read Oliver Green.

Look, I am sorry if you cannot tell the difference between daily tribulation and "those days" of "great tribulation."

Matthew 24
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

It is very sad you cannot understand, these days are VERY SPECIAL days of a different kind of tribulation, caused by Satan Himself.

It is funny that you would tell me that i dont understand. And then go and wright something and then judge me and ask me is i have fasted.
well if you consider i lost my oldest brother at the age of 19 and five years later my baby brother at the age of 19.
and then get run over by a car! rocky mountian spotted fever twice and lived. My mom raised us and she was blind.
these are small tribulations and i am here today buy the grace of god. i gave my life to him in 1984.
and every time the holy spirt comes on me he gives me the understanding of his word. and also
the understandy that there will be people like you! that take the scripture and turn it upside down just like you did with matthew 24
by putting verse 22 in front of 21 to make it seam like someone was removed before thy actually were.

21 For then shall be {great tribulation}, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor {ever shall be}.
22 And except those days should be {shortened},!!! there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's!!!! sake those days shall be
shortened. the elect that means thay are here at that time !!!!!!!!!!!!! so in short no pre trib sorry!

these are words in red!! a quote from christ and you turned them around to your needs to make it looks like you need to take your vanity
and go some where else.
It is WRITTEN that way! It is the way!! GOD wrote it. your Quote!!! so i will dust my feet!!!

Click to expand...

I will admit, those were terrible things in your life. But they were NOT men so angry with you they want to cut off your head. They were NOT men who would torture your family members in front of you, trying to persuade you to GIVE UP Jesus and take the mark.

The ONLY reason I gave verse 22 before verse 21 is so you would see there will be "those days." In the mind of God, the whole week or the last half of the week was NOT GIVEN THE TITLE, "the great tribulation." Now, which makes more sense the way we write in English, "Great tribulation those days," or "those days of Great tribulation?" Those verses say the VERY SAME THING no matter which one you read first. The ONLY reason I wrote them in that order was to highlight "those days" of "Great tribulation" because that is the TYPICAL way of saying it in English - the word order we use. I am sorry if that offended you. I was not trying to change what God wrote in ANY WAY. It still says, there will be "those days" of Great tribulation. No matter how you try to get around it, there WILL BE tribulation SO GREAT there has never been and never will be days like this. What will it be like? Imagine you are Jew hiding in Berlin in 1943. You are the last one. Somehow they KNOW you are there hiding. What will be your chances of living through this? I would have been ZERO - NO chance whatsoever. But what is coming will make that seem INSIGNIFICANT. Why? Because it will be WORLD WIDE.

OF COURSE there will be "elect" here - of three kinds. There will be many just like you that REFUSE to go in the rapture, and so are LEFT BEHIND. There will be many that will TURN TO GOD when they see the BRIDE leave. And there are the JEWS and/or HEBREWS that have been blinded for a season. There will be 144,000 of them that turn to God immediately after seeing the Bride leave, and they get sealed for their protection during the trumpet judgments, then raptured to heaven at the midpoint as "firstfruits." There will be the Jews/Hebrews living in Judea that FLEE and are protected. THEY TOO are "elect." Just because there will be some like you that reject God's way of escape, does NOT MEAN He is NOT coming FIRST. Read your bible! Study to show yourself approved! He is coming FIRST FOR His bride, and later WITH His bride.

In fact and in truth, those days of great tribulation will be SHORTENED and will not extend the full 42 months of authority given the Beast. Yes, he will get is full 42 months, but God will pour out the vials of His wrath, and each one will make it MORE DIFFICULT for the Beast and his armies to hunt people down and lop off their heads. Finally he will be stopped almost completely. Imagine you are in a army and read through those vials. Imagine how you would function as each one is poured out. (I understand there are plagues associated with each vial.)

If you believe the world will not go through days of GT as Jesus said, because you have had your OWN tribulation, then I STILL say you do not yet understand "those days" of "Great tribulation?" Did you ever read the story of the three Hebrew guys that WOULD NOT BOW? Did you ever wonder about all the OTHER Hebrews there? Did THEY bow? Did you place YOURSELF into that scenario and wonder if YOU would bow? Well, if you refuse to believe Jesus is coming FIRST to provide a way of ESCAPE for all these things, then YOU will be faced with exactly the same thing they were faced with - except the death would be by losing your head - not a hot furnace.

Did you STILL not understand why I asked you if you fasted? Did you NOT READ that without the mark, NO ONE can buy or sell? If one cannot buy food, VERY SOON they will get VERY HUNGRY. (If one fasts on purpose, the hunger pains are the same.) That is the ONLY reason I mentioned fasting. It is going to be FORCED upon people by way of the mark. Since you have already made up your mind to go through "those days," when God has provided you a way of escape, you need to know what you will face. Have you ever read about the many FEMA camps (prisons) that have been built here in the US? Ever wonder WHO they have been built for? If you reject the escape plan God has for you, one of them will be for YOU.

Go ahead and dust your feet. You are here on a public forum teaching doctrines of men, thinking, I suppose, they are true. Well, they are NOT. ANYONE who denies the pretrib coming of Jesus Christ for His bride and teaches that as truth, is teaching FALSE DOCTRINE.

I am not coming against you personally at all. THANK GOD you turned to God in 1984. But you are on a PUBLIC forum teaching something NOT TRUE TO THE SCRIPTURES. Someone reading your man made theories could be led astray and MISS the greatest event God has ever pulled off on planet earth: the rapture of His bride! And this could be because of what you have written. This is a very serious thing!

Can you understand, the devil LOVES any doctrine that denies the pretrib rapture. He WANTS as many as he can DECEIVE to be LEFT BEHIND. He is sure he can convince many of them to take the mark and be DOOMED. Therefore it is a DOCTRINE OF DEVILS, as Paul wrote. The devil originated it.

This is SERIOUS business! Without a doubt, weak believers will TAKE THE MARK, and so lose their soul. It is going to be VERY HARD to live when Satan is given total control over planet earth. Starving people are driven to do things they would never do otherwise. By the way, you DID read about the fresh water turning to blood? WHERE THEN will anyone trying to hide from the BEAST get a drink? They cannot go into the 7-11 and BUY anything to drink. Thirsty people will do ANYTHING for a drink. This is VERY serious business! People will be lost in hell FOREVER because they have been persuaded to believe a LIE.

Once again, there is a DIFFERENCE between every day common variety "tribulation" and the "Great Tribulation" "those days" spoken of by Jesus. (I did in in the right order, just for you!)

Once again, Jesus is coming for His bride, BEFORE the 70th week begins. His bride will be in heaven (God's plan of escaping all these things) all during the 70th week. Finally, AFTER the week has finished, and the Old Testament saints have arisen, the bride will attend the WEDDING. Where? IN HEAVEN, of course. Then the wedding supper. Finally, after all that, the bride will return WITH Jesus, to the battle of Armageddon. This is scripture. It cannot and will not be altered. It will happen IN THIS GOD GIVEN ORDER.

For any that think the rapture is at the end, when He comes on the white horse: if that were true, the Bride would MISS her own wedding! It is a preposterous, doctrine of devils. It is FALSE. The bride is down here and the wedding WAS in heaven and OVER WITH when He comes.

So WHEN do "great tribulation" "those days" of, begin? NOT UNTIL AFTER the abomination that divides the week into two equal halves of 1260 days each. But those days and the great pressure will INTENSIFY after the False Prophet shows up, the image is built, and the Mark of the Beast begins to be enforced. Some time after this, God will begin to pour out the vials of His wrath, which will in effect, SHORTEN Great Tribulation: those days.

But why one earth would ANYONE CHOOSE to go through all this, when God has planned a way of escape?

Coop

lecoop · Feb 12, 2012

rodd said:
Jesus speaks about the tribulation as, "those days".....not the last couple of Millenia........that concept is ridiculous.
In the Revelation the tribulation is clearly defined in terms of days......, when Jesus comes he spares the world from anniallation cutting short the days to preserve life.

Very good Rodd. You made that very clear.

About the Jews.
I don't know if the orthodox Jew impresses you somehow??...., maybe your deluded by their percieved piety, but they dispise Christ and are headed to hell, just like anyone who thinks their personal obedience gains them the grace of God!

God LOVES them no less than He loves us. An some of them love our Father more than many Gentiles love Him. They CERTAINLY have more respect for Him than do many Gentiles. But God made PROMISES to them that were never made to Gentiles, and God is ALWAYS true to His promises. OF COURSE they despise Christ, because they have been blinded, and think He was an impostor. But soon that blindness will come off, when the last of the Gentiles come in. I believe 1/3 of them will survive and enter the Millennial Kingdom.

The idea of Satan coming down cause he knows his time is short, just means that he is about to blow his cover, doesn't he walk up and on the surface of the earth, as said in Job?
He's been doing that for thousands of years and he's been here for thousands of years. Jesus confronted him in his ministry
Just means he's coming as Antichrist and marshalling his forces for the cosmic battle. The last seven is about his revealing.

I believe the title is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ." Did you not read what John wrote?

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."

Was he "persecuting" them before? Probably not. But he is going to go after them with a VENGEANCE. It will be quite like Hitler did - but this time it will be WORLD WIDE. There will be few, if any, places to hide. He will be DETERMINED to wipe all trace of Israel off the map forever. Failing with those that fled into the wilderness, he will turn to the "remnant of her seed." This too is a HINT of a pretrib rapture, leaving only a remnant of believers. Again, DEATH is what is on his mind. He will kill so many the holocaust will seem insignificant. But he would FAR rather "persuade" believers to take the mark rather than just kill them, for then he will have them forever. Remember, these are going to be days of tribulation greater than every before on the earth.

Kevin
I agree with most of what your saying, only the elect that are saved because of the shortening of days are the Jews who go through the fullness of the seven years of tribulation. The 144,000 come to Christ possibly because of the witnesses and the catastropic events of judgement, and of course the gift of the Holy Spirit.
We only get to the first 3.5 years, after the peace treaty of 7yrs is ratified, that's the time of rapture IMO.

WHY do you insist on us going through the first 3.5 years? That is not truth. Where do you believe the rapture is found in the book of Revelation, and where to you believe the 70th week begins? I hope you will give us some good reason for your belief.

Coop

rodd · Feb 13, 2012

You believe 1/3 of the Jews with be saved and enter into the kingdom? Do you now?...........Last time I read the number was 144,000.

All I'm saying is, the man of sin is just that, a man, he comes to decieve, which means he's not going to fly down out of the sky like some kind of supervillian otherwise where would be the deception.

Believe me, the Israel he's after is the Israel of the spirit, those that put their hope in the grace of Christ, the rest are his children, read Jesus!

Raptured after the halfway mark? Yes, there is no wrath for those that have been covered by the blood.
Just carn't happen. Gods wrath comes in the last 3.5 years.

Eric E Stahl · Feb 13, 2012

Israels judgment and repentence

rodd said:
You believe 1/3 of the Jews with be saved and enter into the kingdom? Do you now?...........Last time I read the number was 144,000.

All I'm saying is, the man of sin is just that, a man, he comes to decieve, which means he's not going to fly down out of the sky like some kind of supervillian otherwise where would be the deception.

Believe me, the Israel he's after is the Israel of the spirit, those that put their hope in the grace of Christ, the rest are his children, read Jesus!

Raptured after the halfway mark? Yes, there is no wrath for those that have been covered by the blood.
Just carn't happen. Gods wrath comes in the last 3.5 years.

kevinlb63 · Feb 13, 2012

Since this Kingdom wasn't established at the First Coming of Christ, it must be established at the Second Coming. God knew that the Jews would reject His Son; so He predetermined that Christ's shed Blood on Calvary would serve as an atonement for the sin of the world. This was God's plan all along--to come into the world and pay for the sins of all men (Jhn. 1:29; Rev. 13:8). So the First Coming was one of suffering and shame, but the Second Coming will be one of glory, honor, and praise (1 Pet. 1:10-12). The first time Jesus received a crown of thorns, but when He comes again He will have MANY crowns (Rev. 19:12). He was the "lamb of God" when He came the first time, but He will be the "lion of the tribe of Judah" the second time (Rev. 5:5). The First Coming gave Jesus Christ to the world, but the Second Coming will give the world to Jesus Christ! Just as David was chosen to be the king of Israel many years before he actually received the kingdom (1 Sam. 16), the Lord Jesus Christ has been chosen to take over the kingdoms of this world and rule as God's "KING OF KINGS" (Rev. 11:15; 19:16).
A "Christianity" without a Second Coming is a very selfish religion, for it robs Jesus Christ of all God's precious promises to Him. The teaching and preaching of the Second Coming is very essential, because it speaks of God's righteous King returning to this earth and taking what rightfully belongs to Him. Christians should be rejoicing! The Lord Jesus Christ, the Captain of your Salvation (if you're saved), will soon return to this earth and set things in order and YOU can be on the winning side!

The first few verses of Revelation chapter twenty speak of this coming Kingdom being one thousand years long. Verse six says that the saints will reign with Christ for a thousand years. That is, we will reign with Him for a thousand literal years in a literal, physical, and visible earthly Kingdom, and then we will reign forever in the New Heavens and the New Earth (Rev. 5:10; 22:5; 11:15; chapters 21 and 22).
Because Israel rejected Christ, God allowed the Romans to destroy Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and the Jews were dispersed among the Gentile nations of the world. Since then they have wondered from nation to nation suffering bitter persecution. However, in the late 1800's a remarkable thing started happening. In large numbers, the Jews began returning to Palestine, and in 1887 they made formal statements that they intended to REPOSSESS THEIR HOMELAND!
When World War I began in 1914, there were 80,000 Jews living in Palestine. England's Balfour Declaration of 1917 gave strong approval for the Jews to establish a national homeland, but England reneged due to Arab pressure. Nevertheless, 400,000 Jews had settled in the homeland by 1939.
Satan saw what was happening. He knew that the Lord was regathering the Jews for a reason, and he knew the reason: the Second Coming of Christ. So Satan raised up Adolph Hitler to murder six million of God's chosen people as an outright act of hate and revenge. This massive slaughter created enough sympathy for the Jews that the United Nations granted 5000 square miles of Palestinian land to them after World War II. Then in 1948 Israel became an independent nation for the first time in many centuries! The Arabs have fought viciously to destroy Israel, but with no success. God wants His people IN PALESTINE (Amos 9:14-15), because the Lord Jesus Christ is coming very soon. During the Six Day War of 1967, Israel even gained possession of the ancient temple sight, and plans are currently underway to rebuild the temple.the jew have been coming back
for a long time there land is bringing forth fruit and there are jew being saved! and for a note' 144,000 is a small number. in the past 2000 years when christ himself said the time is at hand! over a hundered + one 100 million! jews and christians have been killed i guess LECOOP thinks that is not tribulations. look all we need is christ and belive in him and confess he died for our sins. and keep his fathers law and we will be saved. and to LECOOP at least i dont turn the Scriptures around to suit my needs hay! if i go out in the pre rapture that will be great. but the sdripture i have read so far does not say that . to LECOOP just go and start a new tread and jet other people that belive like you ! why wast your time! just because you can not brainwash us dont mean you cant do it to someone else. i love my god and his son and that is all i need!!

rodd · Feb 13, 2012

Eric E Stahl said:
<STYLE>  </STYLE>
Only one third of Israel will survive the time of Jacob’s trouble. They will repent after they see the nuclear judgment of fire foretold in Ezekiel 39:1-8

Zechariah 13:7–9 KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Of the adults that survive the ratio of men to women will be 7 women to 1 man.

Isaiah 4:1-2
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
2 In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

<STYLE>  </STYLE>By the way 50% of the population of earth will die in the first half of the tribulation, 25% in the seal judgments and 25% by the end of the 6th trumpet judgment. The 6th trumpet is completed with in one hour of the two witnesses going up to heaven after they have finished their 1260 day ministry Revelation 3, 7-12

When you say first half of the tribulation.
Your talking about the halfway mark of the last 3.5 or the middle of the 7yrs, 50% will die?

!/3 of Israel may be saved from death, but doesn't mean the same as saved in the context of eternal life.
Two different things, I believe the 144,000 is the spiritually saved remnant of Israel that we see in chpt 7 of Revelation.

lecoop · Feb 13, 2012

rodd said:
You believe 1/3 of the Jews with be saved and enter into the kingdom? Do you now?...........Last time I read the number was 144,000.

All I'm saying is, the man of sin is just that, a man, he comes to decieve, which means he's not going to fly down out of the sky like some kind of supervillian otherwise where would be the deception.

Believe me, the Israel he's after is the Israel of the spirit, those that put their hope in the grace of Christ, the rest are his children, read Jesus!

Raptured after the halfway mark? Yes, there is no wrath for those that have been covered by the blood.
Just carn't happen. Gods wrath comes in the last 3.5 years.

You read the WRONG verse for the subject:

Zech. 13
8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Of course there is this verse, and truthfully, I don't know what the Lord meant by it: Perhaps you do.

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The 144,000 are only the FIRSTFRUITS. Where there are firsts there are also seconds and thirds, etc.

Did you EVER wonder why the man of sin, also called the Antichrist is called the Son of Perdition. There was only ONE other person called that in the bible: Judas, of whom it is written, was possessed by Satan. I think this is a GOOD hint that Satan will possess the man of sin. Also did you notice that chapter 13 and what is in it, all about the Antichrist Beast, comes right after chapter 12, and Satan being cast down? HOW does Satan go after the woman? My guess is, He possessed the man of sin and uses HIM to go after the woman.

Finally, no man has EVER escaped out of the bottomless pit. But Satan comes and goes. And He is called the destroyer. Just WHO then becomes the 8th king? A Man? Not a man that comes up out of the bottomless pit! The DEVIL comes up out of the pit, and Possesses the man that becomes the 8th king.

Believe you? When the scriptures tell me something different? What is written: who is the FIRST that the dragon (Satan) goes after? The WOMAN who fled into the wilderness. From the words of Jesus, they will be those LIVING IN JUDEA that see the abomination and FLEE. In other words, HEBREWS. Jews. Descendants of JACOB.

So God's wrath comes ONLY in the last half? Please show us WHERE in Revelation you find the START second half of the week and the START of God's wrath. Perhaps then we can get somewhere.

Coop

rodd · Feb 13, 2012

lecoop said:
You read the WRONG verse for the subject:

Zech. 13
8And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Of course there is this verse, and truthfully, I don't know what the Lord meant by it: Perhaps you do.

Romans 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The 144,000 are only the FIRSTFRUITS. Where there are firsts there are also seconds and thirds, etc.

Did you EVER wonder why the man of sin, also called the Antichrist is called the Son of Perdition. There was only ONE other person called that in the bible: Judas, of whom it is written, was possessed by Satan. I think this is a GOOD hint that Satan will possess the man of sin. Also did you notice that chapter 13 and what is in it, all about the Antichrist Beast, comes right after chapter 12, and Satan being cast down? HOW does Satan go after the woman? My guess is, He possessed the man of sin and uses HIM to go after the woman.

Finally, no man has EVER escaped out of the bottomless pit. But Satan comes and goes. And He is called the destroyer. Just WHO then becomes the 8th king? A Man? Not a man that comes up out of the bottomless pit! The DEVIL comes up out of the pit, and Possesses the man that becomes the 8th king.

Believe you? When the scriptures tell me something different? What is written: who is the FIRST that the dragon (Satan) goes after? The WOMAN who fled into the wilderness. From the words of Jesus, they will be those LIVING IN JUDEA that see the abomination and FLEE. In other words, HEBREWS. Jews. Descendants of JACOB.

So God's wrath comes ONLY in the last half? Please show us WHERE in Revelation you find the START second half of the week and the START of God's wrath. Perhaps then we can get somewhere.

Coop

All Israel saved? Have you not also read Romans 'but not all Israel are Israel'?
Only the true sons of Abraham are saved, of Jew and Gentile, remnents of both.

Daniel says he'll be successful up till the time of wrath, Revelation divides the last 7yrs, and the church is not spoken of after the first 42months. It says he persecutes the saints in that times util judgement is given in favor of the Saints.
The judgement is the translation or rapture, at the midpoint, that clears the way for Gods wrath!
Make sense?

Kevin that first paragraph was awesome, thanks.

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