"Rich" Christians?

[Rad]

If God gives us the power and authority to get wealth, wouldn't that be a good thing? Would God give us something bad for us?

Hi Admon, it seems to me that the "powers" God has given us can be used for Good or Evil, thats what "free will's" all about, the power to choose. So we can use the power God gave us to create wealth and distribute that wealth justly and with Compassion to benefit all, or we can selfishly hoard that wealth ourselves, and sit on our mountains of Gold while millions suffer and die in poverty and neglect.
Yes the choice is ours, but so then are the consequences of those choices, and Christ made it blatantly clear what judgement would fall on the Rich, Luke 6 vs 24 "Woe to you that are Rich, for you have received your consolation"

 

[Hitch]

Hi Admon, it seems to me that the "powers" God has given us can be used for Good or Evil, thats what "free will's" all about, the power to choose. So we can use the power God gave us to create wealth and distribute that wealth justly and with Compassion to benefit all, or we can selfishly hoard that wealth ourselves, and sit on our mountains of Gold while millions suffer and die in poverty and neglect.
Yes the choice is ours, but so then are the consequences of those choices, and Christ made it blatantly clear what judgement would fall on the Rich, Luke 6 vs 24 "Woe to you that are Rich, for you have received your consolation"

Care to define 'justly' as used above ?

 

[Rad]

I kinda think how one gains wealth matters... If one is selling the gospel like he is a used car salesman that is not good. IF a man works and is blessed by the Lord via the mans ability i see nothing wrong . Some one who uses people as stepping stones,, his dollar is tainted and ugly. There is no humbleness in one who proclaims his misery the same for the man who proclaims his wealth. A poor man does not have a job to offer another . One of the reasons so much of the USA is ugly was the lack of education a generation ago. Set on your backside and wait for rapture ...

Hi Reba1, so you think Christ should have said, " Do not store up treasure on Earth, unless you have earned it in a just way.....", problem is he didnt say that did he, and his proclamations on the Rich had no proviso as to how those Riches were obtained.
So it seems to me you can either try to follow Christs teachings acknowledging his authority and wisdom or you can add your own provisos, things that make Christs teachings a little more in line with how we'd like them to be, that make them more palatable to our way of thinking.
Seems to me that Christianity is not about what we can take in this life, but all about what we can give, if a man earns more than he needs in this life, then live simply and give the rest to those in need, why do we associate Gods blessing in the accumulation of Earthly riches when we see the hungry and homeless Christ in front of us every day and have the chance to help him in his need, now thats a Blessing indeed.

 

[Hitch]

Hi Reba1, so you think Christ should have said, " Do not store up treasure on Earth, unless you have earned it in a just way.....", problem is he didnt say that did he, and his proclamations on the Rich had no proviso as to how those Riches were obtained.
So it seems to me you can either try to follow Christs teachings acknowledging his authority and wisdom or you can add your own provisos, things that make Christs teachings a little more in line with how we'd like them to be, that make them more palatable to our way of thinking.
Seems to me that Christianity is not about what we can take in this life, but all about what we can give, if a man earns more than he needs in this life, then live simply and give the rest to those in need, why do we associate Gods blessing in the accumulation of Earthly riches when we see the hungry and homeless Christ in front of us every day and have the chance to help him in his need, now thats a Blessing indeed.

You're beginning to remind me of another voice that had too much to say about other people's money.

 

[Rad]

If any one is whinning a bout a Christian being rich and that person has more possessions then the guy living under the bridge they are hypocrites.

Hi Reba1, I dont think anyone here is "Whining" about A Christian being rich, we're "discussing" it, theres a difference, for it seems to me its a matter of vital importance for all of us, as its linked to Christs teachings on Salvation.
And i think before you call anyone a "Hypocrite" you should perhaps reflect on the fact that according to a number of posts on this thread Christ himself was not poor, he had employment, he had financial and other support for his Ministry, he received gifts of Gold ,Myrrh and Frankincense at his birth, and his clothes were of such value as to be worth gambling over at his crucifixion, now whether or not you agree with this i think it can safely be assumed he had "more possessions than the guy living under the bridge", so would you call Christ a "Hypocrite" because he "whined" many times about the incompatibility of Riches and being a follower of his.

 

[Rad]

You seem to be implying something, do you think God has changed ?

Well lets see what Christ said in Matthew 5 vs 17-48
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce
31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Christ says he hasnt come to "abolish" the Law and the Prophets but to "fulfill" them, perhaps you should look on his teachings on Wealth and Riches in the same light, not "abolishing" but "fulfilling". for if we are his followers dont we have to accept his teachings, whether or not we think we know better, which of course we don't.

 

[Hitch]

Well lets see what Christ said in Matthew 5 vs 17-48
The Fulfillment of the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.
25 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.
Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce
31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Eye for Eye
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Christ says he hasnt come to "abolish" the Law and the Prophets but to "fulfill" them, perhaps you should look on his teachings on Wealth and Riches in the same light, not "abolishing" but "fulfilling". for if we are his followers dont we have to accept his teachings, whether or not we think we know better, which of course we don't.

So much for your earlier quote about different Covenants.
Your dismissive attitude toward the ancient Scriptures is problematic as these are the only writings Jesus taught from.

 

[Rad]

Interesting how so many folks speaking about 'Godly poverty' have internet subscriptions.

While its undoubtedly true that the £25 a month or so paid for internet access is probably equivalent to a monthly income for the poorest people in this world barely surviving on less than $1.50 a day, and is only one of the many "luxuries" i have, i use the internet as my main tool for Campaigning to make this world a more just and compassionate place.
The internet , as well as giving access to masses of information on any subject, also allows me to communicate with people all over the world, and is my main tool in fighting the many injustices i witness daily through emails, petition signing, letters and spreading the Campaigns and actions on Social media.
Especially in this time of Lockdowns and restrictions the internet is an instant and world wide tool of communication to talk to people i would never otherwise meet and i have formed contacts in the US, Europe, Sudan, South Africa and India through it.
To give one example, earlier this year the Conservative Government currently in power in the UK proposed cutting the Overseas Aid Budget by £4 billion a year, costing untold suffering and up to an extra 100,000 deaths of men, women and children in the poorest parts of the world. The Internet was vital in the campaign to try to stop these cuts, both in contacting decision makers and those in power and sharing the Campaign through Social media, The campaign didnt succeed, but we fought hard, and the cuts went through, but if we had succeeded in stopping the cuts, well that £4 billion sort of makes my £20 look well worth it. One of the current big campaigns is to try to get the Big Pharma companies to share their vaccine with poor countries where COVID is ravaging their populations, killing millions who would otherwise probably live of they were vaccinated. Its a tough fight but we're not going to stop
But its all down to greed and Money, Riches and Wealth, could be thats the reason why Christ condemned them so harshly, and having been in the Campaigning business for nearly 40 years ive seen with my own eyes the misery and suffering the pursuit of Riches has caused.

 

[Hitch]

While its undoubtedly true that the £25 a month or so paid for internet access is probably equivalent to a monthly income for the poorest people in this world barely surviving on less than $1.50 a day, and is only one of the many "luxuries" i have, i use the internet as my main tool for Campaigning to make this world a more just and compassionate place.
The internet , as well as giving access to masses of information on any subject, also allows me to communicate with people all over the world, and is my main tool in fighting the many injustices i witness daily through emails, petition signing, letters and spreading the Campaigns and actions on Social media.
Especially in this time of Lockdowns and restrictions the internet is an instant and world wide tool of communication to talk to people i would never otherwise meet and i have formed contacts in the US, Europe, Sudan, South Africa and India through it.
To give one example, earlier this year the Conservative Government currently in power in the UK proposed cutting the Overseas Aid Budget by £4 billion a year, costing untold suffering and up to an extra 100,000 deaths of men, women and children in the poorest parts of the world. The Internet was vital in the campaign to try to stop these cuts, both in contacting decision makers and those in power and sharing the Campaign through Social media, The campaign didnt succeed, but we fought hard, and the cuts went through, but if we had succeeded in stopping the cuts, well that £4 billion sort of makes my £20 look well worth it. One of the current big campaigns is to try to get the Big Pharma companies to share their vaccine with poor countries where COVID is ravaging their populations, killing millions who would otherwise probably live of they were vaccinated. Its a tough fight but we're not going to stop
But its all down to greed and Money, Riches and Wealth, could be thats the reason why Christ condemned them so harshly, and having been in the Campaigning business for nearly 40 years ive seen with my own eyes the misery and suffering the pursuit of Riches has caused.

Your problem is envy. And you define 'just' through common humanistic means.
Im curious though , what passage of Scripture grants you the right to anyone else's property?

 

[Rad]

You ignore the Scriptures in arrogance , it is you that must answer and you will not .

I might be wrong, but i dont think ive seen one quote from you justifying your position taken from the Gospels, you quote a lot from the old Testament, you say a lot of how you think things should be, but give me one quote from Christs teaching that you think justifies the possession Of wealth and Riches, because i think its you Hitch that are "ignoring the Scriptures in arrogance", so, could you give me one quote from Christ that justifies your position.

 

[Reba1]

Hi Reba1, I dont think anyone here is "Whining" about A Christian being rich, we're "discussing" it, theres a difference, for it seems to me its a matter of vital importance for all of us, as its linked to Christs teachings on Salvation.
And i think before you call anyone a "Hypocrite" you should perhaps reflect on the fact that according to a number of posts on this thread Christ himself was not poor, he had employment, he had financial and other support for his Ministry, he received gifts of Gold ,Myrrh and Frankincense at his birth, and his clothes were of such value as to be worth gambling over at his crucifixion, now whether or not you agree with this i think it can safely be assumed he had "more possessions than the guy living under the bridge", so would you call Christ a "Hypocrite" because he "whined" many times about the incompatibility of Riches and being a follower of his.

Yes you were whining in post # 183. Could be i am not making myself clear . How and why God blesses another is not my business. The OT is full of pictures of God blessing folks some with money ( money of those days ) some with an unending pot of meal. Some by ravens some by wisdom another by strength. Christ did not whine nor did James

whine

wīn, hwīn
intransitive verb

1. To produce a sustained, high-pitched, plaintive sound, as in pain, fear, or complaint.
2. To complain or protest in a childish or annoying fashion.
3. To produce a sustained noise of high pitch.

I do not believe Christ ever said give funds to the government so the government can care for the poor and needy . That is the responsibility of the Church. For His Body to lay that charge on governments is a disregard for HIs Word.

 

[Hitch]

I might be wrong, but i dont think ive seen one quote from you justifying your position taken from the Gospels, you quote a lot from the old Testament, you say a lot of how you think things should be, but give me one quote from Christs teaching that you think justifies the possession Of wealth and Riches, because i think its you Hitch that are "ignoring the Scriptures in arrogance", so, could you give me one quote from Christ that justifies your position.

Parable of the talents. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi Admon, it seems to me that the "powers" God has given us can be used for Good or Evil, thats what "free will's" all about, the power to choose. So we can use the power God gave us to create wealth and distribute that wealth justly and with Compassion to benefit all, or we can selfishly hoard that wealth ourselves, and sit on our mountains of Gold while millions suffer and die in poverty and neglect.
Yes the choice is ours, but so then are the consequences of those choices, and Christ made it blatantly clear what judgement would fall on the Rich, Luke 6 vs 24 "Woe to you that are Rich, for you have received your consolation"

Ok Jesus did not say judgment would fall on the rich....Nowhere. Again, my friend, you've taken a single verse and made a doctrine on it...Read the entire chapter and you can see that Jesus is not against a person being rich...All through the chapter He is talking about
Blessed are the have nots because good things are coming your way. Not blessed are the Haves because you have your good things now....NEVERTHELESS All of you, do this....Love your enemies and on....The verse "24" does NOT stand alone...

 

[Hitch]

If you're struggling with this idea or if you just want some solid bible based information on the subject I strongly recommend
'Productive Christians
In An age Of Guilt Manipulators'
Dave Chilton 1983

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hi Bob, so give me some idea of how you differentiate between your "possessions" and your "Treasure", because it seems to me that you possess them both, and how many possessions do you have to possess before youre rich, because we all know its easier for a Camel to pass through the Eye of a needle than a Rich man/woman enter heaven.

It seems to me that it all comes down to monetary value, for thats the basis of Earthly wealth, so whether you call it "possessions" or "Treasure", the important point is that when you add the up the value of both, does that make you Rich, because if it does then you fall into the category of those condemned by Christ.

Same comment as before. you HAVE possessions, but "Treasures" have you. the basic question is who/what your GOD is. who/what do you SERVE.

Both of us are filthy rich by world standards. I couldn't care less about my house and most of the stuff in it if it burned to the ground - as far as "Emotional attachment" is concerned. It mostly just "Stuff", and the things that ARE important have little no monetary value at all (like photos, or the recordings of my band from 20 years ago). My house goes around $350K but I have little EMOTIONAL ATTACHMENT to it at all. It's just a box with a bathroom and AC that I can be comfortable in.

I've got three cars, but only the Model "A" Ford has any attachment for me, and it's the cheapest of all of 'em. I don't "Worship it, but I do enjoy it. "Monetary value" has no relation to what your "GOD" is, unless you WORSHIP your possessions. Then you're in trouble. I worshipped Cigarettes for YEARS with an intense dedication, which was well beyond my ability to overcome.

 

[Waggles]

Hebrews 13:5 Let your turn of mind be without love of money, content with what things ye have: for himself hath said, I will in no wise fail thee, neither will I in any wise forsake thee.

 

[Reba1]

Hebrews 13:5 Let your turn of mind be without love of money, content with what things ye have: for himself hath said, I will in no wise fail thee, neither will I in any wise forsake thee.

....content with what things ye have...... if one has money they should be content with it right? The Scriptures do not say ...Let your turn of mind be without money, '''


It is not the money that is evil it is the love of it.
1Ti_6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows
@Waggles if one is hired to do a job is it evil to pay the person, give them money, for their work? Is it evil to accept pay for work ?

 

[PloughBoy]

With money the more you have in Fatness, the more you want. The more Fatness you have the more you try to keep it, And it will rule you. Be not deceive, it can blind you and you will not even know you have been blinded. And you will rely on it. while you are healthy. But when when you get sick, that is another matter. Money will become a "IDOL" do not be deceived. It is easy to talk about and against when you do not have a whole lot of it
It will make you do things if you had little you wouldn't do.
.

 

[PloughBoy]

The Words of Agur (Proverbs 30)BSB
"Keep falsehood and deceitful words far from me. Give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the bread that is my portion. Otherwise, I may have too much and deny You, saying, ‘Who is the LORD?’ Or I may become poor and steal, profaning the name of my God"

 

[Waggles]

@Waggles if one is hired to do a job is it evil to pay the person, give them money, for their work? Is it evil to accept pay for work ?

You are just being silly on this topic. Just read the word of God, and learn from scripture and be a doer of the Word.

James 5:1 Come now, the rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming on.
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and your silver is rusted; and their rust shall be for a testimony against you, and shall eat your flesh as fire. Ye have laid up treasure in the last days.
4 Lo, the hire of the labourers who mowed your lands, which is of you kept back, crieth out: and the cries of them that reaped have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.