The 2 Kinds of Faith of Abraham

[Daniel L.]

It is faith versus circumcision, not faith versus obedience.

Abraham's faith would be dead if he only had faith.

Yes, Abraham circumcised. That is the work he did before he was justified, so when he believed, His faith was True Faith with works and all, so it was seen as righteous. Because if he had not circumcised, his faith would have been dead, and he wouldn't have been justified.

Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

I'm glad you know this.

The only time the KJV mentions faith alone, is to warn us of what kind of faith not to have.

Yes, no one should have dead faith, but what about Paul, when he tells us that we were saved by faith, "not of works" least any man should boast? Or when he tells us that Abraham "worked not" but believed on "him that justifieth the ungodly"? What is he talking about?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

-We have already seen that Abraham circumcised, and that is a work. And that if he hadn't circumcised he wouldn't have been blessed nor justified, because it would be dead faith, without works. So, there are already a number of things wrong with this verse, but who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"? Because it isn't the God of Abraham, nor Jesus:

Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

 

[GodB4Us]

Paul was talking about dead faith, without works.

Yes, he is:

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

There is no other faith:

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

The faith that justifies, is the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Yes, and "Abraham obeyed my voice [...]". Abraham was justified after he did the works. When He believed God, he already had done the works and now, only needed faith to be justified, so when he believed he was seen as righteous, because his Faith was True Faith, with all the works he did. Had Abraham not obeyed God, he wouldn't have been justified, because he would have had dead faith, and wouldn't have been blessed.

Explain James 2:1 all by itself.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

Is James saying any brethren that respect of persons, do not have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ?

Is James saying those that have faith of our Lord Jesus Christ should not have respect of persons?

What is James saying by verse one alone?

When you consider that the church was disrespecting the poor in giving them bad places to sit in the assembly while giving best seats to the rich, if James was referring to the first meaning that any brethren that have respect of persons do not have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, then why is he writing to them? Is that not like saying they are not really brethren at all?

But yet in spite of those disrespecting the poor, he calls them brethren still and so addressing those who that have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, should not have respects of persons.

So faith is still there and it is not done when it is that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

But the church's faith in God to provide for the poor in saying that to the poor is the faith that is dead when the church is not leading by example to the poor by meeting from the collection at church service the poor's immediate needs that were about to perish from the elements and starvation.

James even referred to Abraham and Isaac which that place where it had happened was called Jehovah-jireh as signifying James was only taking about Abraham's faith in God to provide which requires works and NOT the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which does not require works.

But only God can help you see that.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together....

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

As it is, scripture opposes everyone that misapplies James words as if faith in Jesus Christ requires works.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

That is the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation that does not require works.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God............. 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[Daniel L.]

What is James saying by verse one alone?

He is saying those who have the Faith of Jesus Christ, need to love their neighbour as thyself, which is a work. And if they have respect of persons, they commit sin, and are transgressing the Law:

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

-Those who are guilty of sin, and don't keep the Law, can faith saved them?

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

No, Which then brings him to: faith without works is dead, because if they don't keep the commandments, they can't be saved by dead faith. Because not even God can remmit the sins of those who don't repent, nor can He rettain the sins of those who do repent, that is why:

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

[Daniel L.]

believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly

Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.

Proverbs 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the Lord.

 

[Garee]

Of course we can turn and have the power to do so.

No such thing in the scriptures that say we don't, what you say is from false teachers.

There are two turnings according to the law of repentance in Jerimiah 31. First he give us the hearing of His word, turning us walk his way then shown the way the truth the life we can repent ..and return

If one does turn after hearing they will either do it with delight like our brother in the lord Jesus or they will be moved dragged as those who murmur like Jonah.

Without doubt Christ must do the first works in creating new creatures

Philippians2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Without the power of the living word as it is written no man could turn ..What would they turn to without

We don't have the power to purify ourselves to reconcile us to God, but we definitely have power to obey God.

The power to purify ourselves to reconcile us to God is the same power to obey

What? Where do you get Jesus repented?

By the way, God does not drag us, what you are saying is a protestant's mantra.

The power to believe the father is the power of repentance .He who moves mighty men of old according to his will (Christians) turns us so that we might turn and comfort our own selves .The living word that moves is our comforter.

I am not sure of Protestant mantra whatever that is ?

I do know according to the bible that God is not served by the dying hands of corrupted mankind as a will of man (Acts 17) He can use a unbeliever to preach the gospel as well as moving one that does believe the words of God .

Jonah 1;1-3King James Version Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord.

Jesus did the will of the father with delight. Jonah thrown over board , swallowed by a whale , repenting Jonah turning him towards the right direction . vomited on dry ground, kicked against the pricks all the way and wanted to die rather than God have mercy on the Ninevites like some do with Protestants .

In that way man's anger does not produce the righteous life God had planed as his desire.

Jonah 4:1-4 But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry. And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil. Therefore now, O Lord, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live. Then said the Lord, Doest thou well to be angry?

The drawing or dragging power of God who is not served by human hands in any way shape or form .

 

[GodB4Us]

He is saying those who have the Faith of Jesus Christ, need to love their neighbour as thyself, which is a work. And if they have respect of persons, they commit sin, and are transgressing the Law:

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

-Those who are guilty of sin, and don't keep the Law, can faith saved them?

They void faith hence their wedding garment and are at risk of being denied by Him as in left behind when the Bridegroom comes, but He still abides even in even former believers that gets left behind. See verse 13 in 2 Timothy 2:11-13

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

No, Which then brings him to: faith without works is dead, because if they don't keep the commandments, they can't be saved by dead faith. Because not even God can remmit the sins of those who don't repent, nor can He rettain the sins of those who do repent, that is why:

The problem here is that you are overlooking the other offense that the church was doing to the poor which was the church was sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor without leading by example to the poor.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Unfortunately, you have been looking over scriptures that I have already shared with you in post # 62 that the call to repent is to repent from unbelief by believing in Him because it is by believing in Him is how we are saved.

But hey. Knock yourself out. Just explain to me that if salvation is by works, then how much works do you need to do in order to get born again of the Spirit and be saved? If you cannot answer that, then maybe you ought to read John 3:7-18 again on what Jesus told Nicodemus as to when and how one gets born again as it will happen after His ascension which is after His crucifixion, for whenever any one believes in Him. The simplicity of the gospel is why Jesus Christ is the Good News to man.

 

[GodB4Us]

Paul was talking about dead faith, without works.

No. He was not.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

[Daniel L.]

the call to repent is to repent from unbelief by believing in Him because it is by believing in Him is how we are saved.

Yes, But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
So they have to repent from wickedness too, otherwise they can't repent from unbelief, because they will only have True Faith when they have works too.

how much works do you need to do in order to get born again of the Spirit and be saved?

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

 

[Daniel L.]

But to him that worketh not

How is "him that worked not" not one with dead faith without works? He worketh not, he has no works, he has no faith.

 

[GodB4Us]

Yes, But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
So they have to repent from wickedness too, otherwise they can't repent from unbelief, because they will only have True Faith when they have works too.

The problem here is are you emphasizing the sinner to repent from all sins before coming to & believing in Jesus Christ or are you telling the sinners that they can also hope in Jesus to deliver them from their sins and not just give them eternal life?

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

When you cite a reference like this, it makes me think you are placing that emphasis on the sinner to save themselves because that is what the Jews were doing under the Old Covenant in keeping the Ten Commandments.

Let us look at this in context, shall we?

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Verse 29 suggests that this certain lawyer was not really keeping that latter half of that commandment in loving thy neighbor as himself for why he had asked that question, hoping to justify himself for not loving every one.

Here is another example of a Jew seeking to save themselves by keeping the commandments, but this time, he was very rich.

Matthew 19:.16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

That was Jesus saying that men cannot justify themselves at all, only God can and this is done as He said elsewhere by believing in Him for eternal life.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That is how you enter into the New Covenant by believing in Jesus Christ that God will do this for us; not just have the free gift o eternal life but He will deliver sinners from their sins, keep them from their sins, and help them to follow Him as that is what discipleship is all about for why it is separate from salvation as we live a life of repentance daily trusting Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight ( provisions for the flesh as well as man made bondages ) & sins in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son in bearing fruit so that our joy may be full..

 

[GodB4Us]

How is "him that worked not" not one with dead faith without works? He worketh not, he has no works, he has no faith.

That is what is written, is it not?

Since scripture cannot go against scripture is why I am saying you are reading the words of James wrong because he was addressing the church's abuse of that faith in God to provide for the poor by sharing that faith to the poor to get out of helping the poor WITHOUT meeting their immediate needs of those poor that were about to perish from the elements and starvation.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

In context of what James was talking about, you have to apply it only to verses 15 & 16 because faith in God's Providence is the only faith James was talking about that requires works from the church to meet in sharing that faith to the poor.

 

[Daniel L.]

you emphasizing the sinner to repent from all sins before coming to & believing in Jesus Christ

Yes, they can believe, but True Faith that saves is with works, so until they do the works their faith is dead.

That was Jesus saying that men cannot justify themselves at all, only God can

He said: "this do, and tho shalt live." And He cannot lie, so if you keep the commandments you shalt live.
Can even God justify the wicked, if he doesn't repent?

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.

That is how you enter into the New Covenant by believing in Jesus Christ

Yes, believe on Him, and He said: "unless you repent you shall all likewise perish". Do you believe Him?

you are reading the words of James wrong

Why do you assume James and Jesus is "wrong" but somehow your reading of Paul is right? Jesus cannot be "wrong", He said keep the commandments and thou shalt live, and James agrees, faith without works is dead, they both tell us to follow the commandments. So, the only thing that can be "wrong" here is you reading Paul, because "him that worketh not" has dead faith, and won't be saved, and "the one who justifies the ungodly" is unknown, because what is known is that the Mighty One of Israel will not justify the ungodly, and that Jesus told us to keep the commandments. You choose whom will ye serve.

 

[GodB4Us]

Yes, they can believe, but True Faith that saves is with works, so until they do the works their faith is dead.

No, because that would exclude every one on their death beds for why believers appeal to those that are dying and some do believe and get saved before dying.

He said: "this do, and tho shalt live." And He cannot lie, so if you keep the commandments you shalt live.
Can even God justify the wicked, if he doesn't repent?

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Exodus 23:7 [...] I will not justify the wicked.

Yes, believe on Him, and He said: "unless you repent you shall all likewise perish". Do you believe Him?

Why do you assume James and Jesus is "wrong" but somehow your reading of Paul is right? Jesus cannot be "wrong", He said keep the commandments and thou shalt live, and James agrees, faith without works is dead, they both tell us to follow the commandments. So, the only thing that can be "wrong" here is you reading Paul, because "him that worketh not" has dead faith, and won't be saved, and "the one who justifies the ungodly" is unknown, because what is known is that the Mighty One of Israel will not justify the ungodly, and that Jesus told us to keep the commandments. You choose whom will ye serve.

God will justify all those who believe in Him since He came into the world to save sinners.

Where was Saul's repentance on the road to Damascus when Jesus appeared to him? He was still wicked before He appeared to him & spoke to him so... how do you deal with that?

1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

 

[Daniel L.]

death beds

They have to confess their sins, and He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Confessing is a work.

God will justify all those who believe in Him since He came into the world to save sinners.

He will justify those who believe on Him with true faith, and repent. Because unless you repent you will perish. He came to save us from our sins.

Where was Saul's repentance on the road to Damascus when Jesus appeared to him? He was still wicked before He appeared to him & spoke to him so... how do you deal with that?

This is your evidence for faith without works? One single witness? This means nothing.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

-I have three witnesses, one of them Jesus Himself, all saying we are saved by works: faith without works is dead, keep my commandments, and John:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[GodB4Us]

They have to confess their sins, and He will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Confessing is a work.

He will justify those who believe on Him with true faith, and repent. Because unless you repent you will perish. He came to save us from our sins.

This is your evidence for faith without works? One single witness? This means nothing.

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

-I have three witnesses, one of them Jesus Himself, all saying we are saved by works: faith without works is dead, keep my commandments, and John:

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

You should consider the credit of the drawing goes to the Father for how our believing in Jesus Christ has been wrought by God. The truth that we do believe in him is how we know we are saved because of what the Father has done.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father does the revealing of the Son as well as hiding the truth.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

So it is the Father that gives us to the Son to believe in Him to be saved as the will of the Father is any who believe in Jesus Christ are saved

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So our believing in Him is wrought by God.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Discipleship is separate from salvation and that does involve running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily but we do so for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House, not for obtaining salvation because we are saved for why and how we are in that race to run by faith in Jesus Christ to finish His work in us to His glory, for why we would praise Him for His crowning achievements in us.

 

[Daniel L.]

You should consider the credit of the drawing goes to the Father

Yes, but you should consider free-will, and how many are called but few are chosen. Only those with the Robes of Righteousness are chosen:

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

-The saints who work Righteousness are covered in White Robes, but the wicked "who worketh not" are naked:

Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

So our believing in Him is wrought by God.

You who say this do not know what is free-will, and how it is possible to be really good; that he who is good by his own choice is really good; but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice.

 

[GodB4Us]

Yes, but you should consider free-will, and how many are called but few are chosen. Only those with the Robes of Righteousness are chosen:

Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

-The saints who work Righteousness are covered in White Robes, but the wicked "who worketh not" are naked:

Isaiah 59:6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

You who say this do not know what is free-will, and how it is possible to be really good; that he who is good by his own choice is really good; but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice.

Explain this then;

This is how we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ;

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is how wwe follow Him by faith in Jesus Christ.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

And this;

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So where is the free will here?

 

[Daniel L.]

So where is the free will here?

Yes, He is the One who calls us, to repentance. Many are called, but only those who repent are chosen. You can't come to Him, unless the Father draws you, but if the Father draws you to Him, that is an invitation, a call to repentace. Now, you need to repent, because only those with the White Robes of Righteousness are accepted at the wedding. He won't repent for you, repentance must be your own work by your own free will, that is why He said unless YOU repent you will perish, and not unless I repent for you you will perish. Which would make no sense, think about it:

-If Jesus had to repent for us, then any one who has not repented could blame Him for his own unrepentance, and what justice would there be in condemning an unrepentant soul to hell, if he had no choice? This unrepentant soul could very well defend himself and say: "Jesus didn't repent for me, how could have I repented of my sins, if I have no free will?" And so, the blame for this injustice would be upon Jesus, who didn't repent for the unrepentant, it would be Jesus's fault for the existence of the wicked. Which is blasphemous, to put any blame on the spotless Lamb.

-So because Jesus is Blameless, it is the wicked's own fault, that he has not repented of his sins, he is the one who has to repent of his own sins, because he was given free will. Also, a relationship requires the consent or free choice of both parties, right? God calls, but you have to make that choice:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The choosen, bring fruit and keep His commandments, that is why anything we ask, we receive:

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

-Yet another example, it says: "we keep his commandments". It doesn't say He keeps His own commandments for us.

 

[GodB4Us]

Yes, He is the One who calls us, to repentance. Many are called, but only those who repent are chosen. You can't come to Him, unless the Father draws you, but if the Father draws you to Him, that is an invitation, a call to repentace. Now, you need to repent, because only those with the White Robes of Righteousness are accepted at the wedding. He won't repent for you, repentance must be your own work by your own free will, that is why He said unless YOU repent you will perish, and not unless I repent for you you will perish. Which would make no sense, think about it:

-If Jesus had to repent for us, then any one who has not repented could blame Him for his own unrepentance, and what justice would there be in condemning an unrepentant soul to hell, if he had no choice? This unrepentant soul could very well defend himself and say: "Jesus didn't repent for me, how could have I repented of my sins, if I have no free will?" And so, the blame for this injustice would be upon Jesus, who didn't repent for the unrepentant, it would be Jesus's fault for the existence of the wicked. Which is blasphemous, to put any blame on the spotless Lamb.

-So because Jesus is Blameless, it is the wicked's own fault, that he has not repented of his sins, he is the one who has to repent of his own sins, because he was given free will. Also, a relationship requires the consent or free choice of both parties, right? God calls, but you have to make that choice:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

The choosen, bring fruit and keep His commandments, that is why anything we ask, we receive:

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

-Yet another example, it says: "we keep his commandments". It doesn't say He keeps His own commandments for us.

Obviously we see His words in a different light when it comes to how we follow Him in keeping His commandments, but I'd say we follow Him by faith in Him & all His promises to us to help us to follow Him because He really is the Good Shepherd and not just the Saviour.

So let us address tour last reference that He may illustrate this truth to you. Do note the change over the 2 greatest commandments under the Old Covenant.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Now for the New Covenant

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

So I see believing in Jesus Christ first and foremost for how He helps me as my Good Shepherd to do the second commandment is how I follow Him as it is written that the just shall live by faith.

 

[Garee]

I would offer commandments as living words they empower us to beleive and empower us to do the work of faith as a labor of his love working in us yoked with Him .


In that way God is not served by human hands as a will .He warns us of those who would seduce us to beleive we do need a man to teach us (1 John 2)

He promises us in John 14, the Spirit of Christ the Holy Spirit of God unseen will guide, will teach, comfort us and will bring to our memory the previous tangs he has taught us yoked with Him

That way we can seek his approval by faith (his power) then we can empowered to obey the commandment as it is written .

Some might say yes a good suggestion or theory to study .. but not a living law. They say we can seek the approval of many gods or private interpretations of men . The Legion Satan. .

The loving commandment below>. .

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.