The 2 Kinds of Faith of Abraham

[GodB4Us]

No, it is "when he offered Isaac upon the altar" as it is written.

Yet Abraham was still applying faith in God to provide so he would not have to sacrifice Isaac even though he laid him on the altar. The oddity of it when looking at his work when in reality, Abraham was hoping otherwise.

 

[Daniel L.]

Yet Abraham was still applying faith in God to provide so he would not have to sacrifice Isaac even though he laid him on the altar. The oddity of it when looking at his work when in reality, Abraham was hoping otherwise.

So, Abraham was justified because of his faith in God to provide?

Are we declared righteous because we believe that God will provide, or because we believe in Christ?

 

[GodB4Us]

So, Abraham was justified because of his faith in God to provide?

Justified can be referred to being righteous in applying that faith in God to provide in that way. Abraham had told Isaac that God will provide and when there was nothing to take his place at the altar, Abraham placed his son on the altar but believing that God will provide so he would not have to go through with it and God did. That is why Abraham named the place Jehovah Jireh as referring to that moment when Abraham's faith in God to provide was realized for Isaac to be spared. So Abraham was justified in the eyes of Isaac for Abraham's faith in God to provide in Isaac's place, a ram.

Example. if a cult leader tells his followers that they have to apply faith in God to heal and not go to the doctors nor a hospital, but when he gets sick or hurt, he goes to the doctor and or the hospital, he is not righteous nor justified for applying faith in God to heal in the eyes of his followers, see? That is another example of how one applies faith to instill on others and yet failing to lead by example.

Are we declared righteous because we believe that God will provide, or because we believe in Christ?

If you share your faith in God to provide TO the poor without leading by example, then you are not justified nor righteous for sharing your faith in God to provide in the eyes of the poor as your faith will not profit the poor nor save the poor from the weather & starvation as the poor will see your faith in God to provide as "dead".

This is not referring to faith in Jesus Christ as if they are not real Christians for doing those things because if that was the message, James would not even bother writing to that church as they were disrespecting the poor in other ways too by giving the best seats to the rich while making the poor to sit on the floor. But yet James is rebuking them anyway because they are still His as bought with a price and sealed as His for believing in Jesus Christ and because they are His, is why he is rebuking that church for disrespecting the poor in more ways than one.

 

[Daniel L.]

So Abraham was justified in the eyes of Isaac

Impossible, justification before men, was rebuked by Messiah. And Abraham was not a hypocrite:

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

 

[Garee]

Yes, I agree. No man can come to Christ on his own, the Father has the draw him first. But I think we were all drawn here, already. We are all discussing Christ. So we are past that, aren't we?

-The next thing, after one is drawn to Christ, is whether or not he will repent of his sins. Because many are called/drawn, but few/only those who repent are chosen. The naked/unrighteous are not accepted at the wedding, only the righteous, with white robes of fine linen are accepted. And fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

-And this works of righteousness, even tho they were made possible by the Father, they are still a persons own works, of their own free will. The person must choose to do the Father will, and accept Him. Otherwise it wouldn't be a relationship, because a true relationship requires the consent of both parties.

I would agree but would add the drawing is God working in us repenting us or turning us toward him so that in turn we can repent .As always he does the first works.

To repent requires turning twice ,The first he turn us then having been turned of empowered we can perform it to His good pleasure .Without him we can do nothing

He draws us by the hearing of His faithfulnesss. If we do not hear we will not turn In that way he hears our moans of anxiety (bemoaning ) then give s a desire to do his will

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

 

[God's Truth]

Yet Abraham was still applying faith in God to provide so he would not have to sacrifice Isaac even though he laid him on the altar. The oddity of it when looking at his work when in reality, Abraham was hoping otherwise.

What you are saying is not in the scriptures.
Abraham was going to kill, sacrifice, his son because God told him too, and Abraham knew that God could also give his son life again.

 

[God's Truth]

I would agree but would add the drawing is God working in us repenting us or turning us toward him so that in turn we can repent .As always he does the first works.

To repent requires turning twice ,The first he turn us then having been turned of empowered we can perform it to His good pleasure .Without him we can do nothing

He draws us by the hearing of His faithfulnesss. If we do not hear we will not turn In that way he hears our moans of anxiety (bemoaning ) then give s a desire to do his will

God gives us the desire to do His will? Give the scripture for that.

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.

We have to humble ourselves and repent of our sins to be saved and in right standing with God.

 

[God's Truth]

No. It is not.

That specific point in time is about Abraham's faith in God to provide.

Abraham faith was tested by what he did.

James 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, Abraham had faith before, and God provided afterwards. But that is not what James is talking about, James talks about Justification, which is by works:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

This is a very specific point in time, when Abraham offered Isaac upon the altar. It is this particular work that justified Abraham.

Even before Abraham's faith is mentioned, Abraham OBEYING is mentioned first.


Genesis 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go forth from your country, And from your relatives And from your father's house, To the land which I will show you; 4 So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him.

Here in Hebrews, Paul QUOTES that Old Testament scripture in Genesis, AND HE defends faith AND OBEDIENCE:


Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

Abraham had faith in God and obeyed Him, and it is why he was blessed.

Genesis 22:18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Genesis 26:4-5I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws.

 

[God's Truth]

Abraham's faith in God to provide was what he had shared with Isaac before hand, and this faith in God to provide was seen when God provided the ram to replace Isaac as the sacrifice.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

Anraham named that place per his faith in God to provide. All Jews knows this for why James, a former Jew, was referring to that moment about Abraham's faith in God to provide. May God cause the increase.

Abraham was really going to kill Isaac.

Genesis 22: 15And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

 

[God's Truth]

Yes, I agree. No man can come to Christ on his own, the Father has the draw him first. But I think we were all drawn here, already. We are all discussing Christ. So we are past that, aren't we?

-The next thing, after one is drawn to Christ, is whether or not he will repent of his sins. Because many are called/drawn, but few/only those who repent are chosen. The naked/unrighteous are not accepted at the wedding, only the righteous, with white robes of fine linen are accepted. And fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

-And this works of righteousness, even tho they were made possible by the Father, they are still a persons own works, of their own free will. The person must choose to do the Father will, and accept Him. Otherwise it wouldn't be a relationship, because a true relationship requires the consent of both parties.

We obey Jesus' words and that is how we have the Spirit and life. It is how we eat his flesh. It is how he lives through us and us through him.

Jesus tells us to humble ourselves, to want him more than anything or anyone, even more than our own lives, and that we are to confess our sins to him and repent of them. He tells us to even have our thoughts under control and not to sin in thought. He tells us to forgive others.

 

[GodB4Us]

Abraham was really going to kill Isaac.

Genesis 22: 15And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

I agree that Abraham was going to kill Isaac as he was commanded, but it doesn't explained what he had said to Isaac about his faith in God providing beforehand and it does not explain why he named the place afterwards as Jehovah Jireh about God providing either.

 

[God's Truth]

I agree that Abraham was going to kill Isaac as he was commanded, but it doesn't explained what he had said to Isaac about his faith in God providing beforehand and it does not explain why he named the place afterwards as Jehovah Jireh about God providing either.

You have been making it as if Abraham never really thought he would kill Isaac.

Abraham knew that he wouldn't even have had Isaac if God had not miraculously made Sarah able to have a child and at such an old age.

 

[Garee]

God gives us the desire to do His will? Give the scripture for that.


We have to humble ourselves and repent of our sins to be saved and in right standing with God.

God is not served by humans hands as a will Some murmur other do the will of God with delight

Philippians 2:13 -14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Job 23 gives us the same witness as Philippians 2:13 -14

Job 23 :12-15 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

In that way mankind cannot make their own hearts soft with out the water of the word and the work of God applying it .

Repentance is a work of God turning us not us turning him . Do you think you could turn God ?

 

[Daniel L.]

Repentance is a work of God

You who say this do not know what is free-will, and how it is possible to be really good; that he who is good by his own choice is really good; but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[Garee]

You who say this do not know what is free-will, and how it is possible to be really good; that he who is good by his own choice is really good; but he who is made good by another under necessity is not really good, because he is not what he is by his own choice.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Yes God having turned them they in turn repented form the evil thy were doing . rather than setroing them thatwere yoked with Christ he caled them back from their foolish ways

Two works of turning repenting. First Christ the one with power turns us and them empowered we can turn to him . (the law of repentance) No man can turn God of his own volition .

God created man with the will to please the Faithful Creator .

Jesus said to the disciples that brought him food to eat . He said his food of daily bread is to do the will of God. God who does work in his creatures to both reveal his will and again give them the power to repent .And after feel shame knowing God has repented .
Two turning or works of repenting empowered by one.

Jerimiah 31: 18-19 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

He did not repent because he did bear the shame first then turn .If we turn we thank him for being forgiven. Being comforted by faith receiving the end of salvation from the beginning God turning us to repent ..or comfort oneself

 

[Daniel L.]

God having turned them

That is not what it says:

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[God's Truth]

God is not served by humans hands as a will Some murmur other do the will of God with delight

We have to obey God. We can obey Him.

Philippians 2:13 -14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Job 23 gives us the same witness as Philippians 2:13 -14

Job 23 :12-15 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

In that way mankind cannot make their own hearts soft with out the water of the word and the work of God applying it .

We make our own heart soft by doing what God says to do.

Ezekiel 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God does not make us obey.

Repentance is a work of God turning us not us turning him .

Repentance is the work God tells us to do.
What do you mean not us turning him?
We have to obey Him or we won't be saved.

Do you think you could turn God ?

God searches everyone's heart and mind. No one is saved if they don't obey Him.

 

[God's Truth]

Yes God having turned them they in turn repented form the evil thy were doing . rather than setroing them thatwere yoked with Christ he caled them back from their foolish ways

Two works of turning repenting. First Christ the one with power turns us and them empowered we can turn to him . (the law of repentance) No man can turn God of his own volition .

God created man with the will to please the Faithful Creator .

Jesus said to the disciples that brought him food to eat . He said his food of daily bread is to do the will of God. God who does work in his creatures to both reveal his will and again give them the power to repent .And after feel shame knowing God has repented .
Two turning or works of repenting empowered by one.

Jerimiah 31: 18-19 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

He did not repent because he did bear the shame first then turn .If we turn we thank him for being forgiven. Being comforted by faith receiving the end of salvation from the beginning God turning us to repent ..or comfort oneself

Jeremiah was a Jew and a child of God and had to repent of his sins. God chastises those He loves.

 

[Garee]

Jeremiah was a Jew and a child of God and had to repent of his sins. God chastises those He loves.

Who does the first works of turning the other?