The fires of hell

[KingJ]

All have sinned and fall short of the glory to include Noah .Noah was used as a example of not being unevenly yoked with daughters of men (the un-redeemed) , at that time period the spiritual seed Christ was still being developed in a genealogy .It ended when the Son of man was born

So, what you are saying is that because all have sinned and Noah was ''chosen'' (even though he was a sinner like the rest), he was spared and the rest drowned. Even children. Babies can be terrible sinners?

Why did God spare all Hebrews under twenty in the wilderness? Num 14:29.

If you believe ''we have all sinned = we all deserve annihilation'' then why did God separate sinners from sinners in Hades with Abraham's bosom?

The devil brought unbalance God word the standard provided the balance

Who put the devil on earth?

That judgment is one that evaluates not a judgment that comes to an end . Only God can see into a every person’s heart and move them according to the good pleasure of His will .

The fact that God can see into one's heart should make His judgement even more just. There is nothing just about '''all getting the death penalty''.

What do you think of us judging angels? 1 Cor 6:3. Does that not make you think about the fact that angels still sin?

We are to call no one a fool (no God in the hearts) as to the end of the matter. The messengers called angels are the Sons of God they as the elect try the sprits to see if they are of men inspired from earth or God inspired from heaven. Many went out from us because they were not od those v born again to begin with. Paul warns us before the close of the law of God the scriptures (Revealtion) .Some will say here is Christ or he is there. He commands us to believe not making it impossible to deceive those who do evaluate by trying the spirits .What some call judging angels evaluating whether they are true prophet sent as aspotles or false .

Not sure what you are referring to. Is this your take on 1 Cor 6:3?

The sentence to a murder is more than one is able to bear without Christ .Cain when offered the gospel murdered his brother Abel .the first recorded martyr and apostle who died serving Christ. Abel was given rest in in his increased labor making the lord lighter and it gave Abel a future hope after death. His blood cries out from the corrupted dust(heart of the corrupted earth) longing to be clothed with the eternal just as any saint ..

Why would you say this? What has this got to do with what I said?

Cain the atheist (fool ) buried Abel under in the corn field setting up the Pagan foundation of unbelief. No faith. . . . . out of sight. . . out of mind. No faith that exclusively comes from hearing God as two walking together. .

I don't think Cain was an atheist, God appeared to him and spoke to him.

Cain desired to die rather than spend his life under the burden he could not bear . . that only in Christ could one bear. The Holy Spirit placed the mark of his Word or promise (666) Marking his word what it says does come to pass .If any try and choose the instant death penalty they themselves would be considered a murderer under the power of Satan a murder from that beginning the same spirit of murder that works in all the serial killer today .The opposing spirit of truth.

What has this got to do with anything I said?

Geneisis 4:13:15 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Cain suffered the living pangs of hell all the days of his life.

I doubt it. He lived out his life away from God, as that was his choice. Him not repenting = Him rejecting to live with God in his life. He got exiled from a place where Adam, Even and Abel lived. It was not nice as there were not many people / brothers and sisters elsewhere I guess. But he had to be exiled as he was an unrepentant murderer.

The only punishment was exile. That was the pain that was too great to bear. In his exile, I am pretty sure he found nice fruit to eat, nice beaches to tan on, clean water to swim in, caught tasty meat, made warm clothing from animal hide. He probably had his own orchard and a tent near an exotic beach. We know he found a nice wife and had many children. Terrible hell, yes, absolutely terrible.

 

[Sue D.]

He lived in the land of Nod where he found a wife -- away from his original home with parents. But people were living many hundreds of years back then. So he was living with others of his family members that he would not have even known. He was to be a man without a home -- he was a murderer. but no one was allowed to harm him. His wife would be a wanderer same as he was. It was far more serious then than it is Now

 

[KingJ]

He lived in the land of Nod where he found a wife -- away from his original home with parents. But people were living many hundreds of years back then. So he was living with others of his family members that he would not have even known. He was to be a man without a home -- he was a murderer. but no one was allowed to harm him. His wife would be a wanderer same as he was. It was far more serious then than it is Now

You assume a lot. I would bet on his 'wandering' stopping when he found his wife and settled down.

Well done on saying ''''living with others of his family'''. In that day, they were all close relatives .

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- back in that day -- people lived so long / hundreds of years / that brothers and sisters wouldn't be living in the same house. They would go off on their own. Adam lived until he was 930 yrs. old. He and Eve Probably continued to have children all of those years. We aren't really told, though. Vs 4 , ch 5 "After he begot Seith, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters.

Now days -- people live very short lives -- the average age / life expectancy is probably 80. Kids live in the same households -- so brothers and sisters can't genetically safely have an intimate relationship. We're given all those guidelines in Leviticus.

And, yes, in that day they were all close relatives as in being brothers and sisters to each other. But they didn't know each other in that respect. And, as brothers and sisters became aware Of their sexuality, no doubt they Did have kids together. Back then it didn't make any difference.

Looking at Genesis 4:8 - 17 -- looks like we're both assuming a lot. vs 12 "A fugitive and a vagabond you shall be on the earth." vs 16 Then cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. vs 17 And Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. He he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son ---Enoch. And the passage continues on with the geneology of Enoch and his descendents.

It's interesting -- we have Enoch and later on in that same chapter Seth has a son who was named Enosh.

 

[Sue D.]

I was just rereading this thread -- I sort of jumped in at the last minute and derailed it. Sorry.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Hi all, just looking for a light hearted discussion on the fires of hell.

I have been praying on this a lot lately and feel the Lord has helped me with some insight on the topic.

Just to set the scene. Burning in fire as we know it, is torture. God is good, not wicked. As such the fire has to be something other then a brazen bull type scenario. God is good Psalm 136:1, God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

So, how does a good God escape judgement of being wicked when he places sinners in fire for all eternity. That is the question.

One would think a short session in a fire be fine. Like one second for every sin, capped at ten minutes. Something like the beating Jesus endured, just replaced with fire. Burning anyone longer then ten minutes is wicked, fact. Heck, perhaps even one minute?

Yet scripture does not give us wiggle room. It says fire, eternal and calls the home of the wicked a lake of fire. Fire is not going away.

I believe God has shown me what the fire is and why it is there.......

Those in hell go on in sin. That is why they are separated from us in heaven. We in heaven repent and have Jesus as our cover from punishment for sin. Those in hell don't. They will sin today, tomorrow, next week, next year and continue in sin for all eternity. Never truly desire repentance. Never truly hate what is evil.

The fires of hell are linked to sin. They cannot be quenched because sin never ceases. It is a literal fire but a different kind of fire. One that the person suffering is aware of, but yet it is not at a degree where they are screaming in pain.

The rich man held a conversation and asked only for a drop of water on their tongue Luke 16:19-31. People in hell weep and gnash their teeth because they are cast out of heaven Luke 13:28, not because they are on fire.

So, in conclusion, the fire is not ''God's punishment'' on the wicked. I believe it is more a natural consequence of one's sin. Somehow linked to their sin. God's punishment on the wicked is Him separating them from Him and the righteous and perhaps a momentary punishment matching one's sin, like the beating of Jesus for example.

All thoughts welcome, please keep it peaceful.

Nobody truly knows, but what we do know is that God is good yesterday, today and tomorrow. So, please consider how a good God remains good when explaining fires of hell to anyone.

Simply put...One chooses Jesus and spends eternity with Him...or...One chooses Satan and spends eternity with him.... Its a matter of free will....There are no other choices.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Simply put...One chooses Jesus and spends eternity with Him...or...One chooses Satan and spends eternity with him.... Its a matter of free will....There are no other choices.

I will add....God does not send one to hell,,,The person going there chose it, by choosing to follow Satan and choosing to deny Jesus.

 

[KingJ]

I will add....God does not send one to hell,,,The person going there chose it, by choosing to follow Satan and choosing to deny Jesus.

Agreed. We just need to ensure the lost understand that denying Jesus is not simply saying ''I deny Jesus'', but rather a refusal to repent of your sins and turn from your wicked ways.

As John 3:19 says '''people reject the light because they love the darkness''.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- The Holy Spirit works in the individual's heart -- people don't usually Say "I deny Jesus" -- we Can be praying for them -- sharing with them the Gospel unto salvation -- but it's the Holy Spirit that does the 'saving'.

The passage context begins with vs 16 or so and continues on through vs 21.
vs 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
vs 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." vs 22 After these things Jesus sand His disciples came into the land of Judea , and there He remained with them and baptized."

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ -- The Holy Spirit works in the individual's heart -- people don't usually Say "I deny Jesus" -- we Can be praying for them -- sharing with them the Gospel unto salvation -- but it's the Holy Spirit that does the 'saving'.

Of course the Holy Spirit / Jesus does the saving. By stating that I feel you are confusing two matters.

1. Repenting of sin
2. Being saved

They are two separate events. Without us doing the first, the second never happens.

 

[B-A-C]

1. Repenting of sin
2. Being saved

They are two separate events. Without us doing the first, the second never happens.

One of the things we agree on.
People take verses like...

John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

..and take this to mean I have to come to Jesus before I repent. But that isn't what that verse says. No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws them... true enough.
But the Father had to draw you. This means you can come to the Father before you come to Jesus. (yes I agree they are both God, but different persons)
We may not be able to seek Jesus on our own, but we can seek the Father.

Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Acts 17:27; that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;

Prov 8:17; "I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.
Isa 55:6; Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.

 

[Sue D.]

@ B-A-C -- isn't repentence part Of being saved? A person is convicted by the Holy Spirit Of their sinfulness / aren't several things happening at the same time? a person responds To the convicting of the Holy Spirit and is acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the Son of God / His death, burial and bodily resurrection on the 3rd day -- a person wouldn't feel the need To repent if it weren't for the inner working Of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation doesn't become 'yours' until a person Accepts it -- thanking God the Father For His gift of salvation. And then the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person.

 

[KingJ]

@ B-A-C -- isn't repentence part Of being saved? A person is convicted by the Holy Spirit Of their sinfulness / aren't several things happening at the same time? the person.

Directed at BAC, but my two cents is ''no!''.

You need to separate events. It is just like marriage. Is courting the same as engagement? Is engagement the same as marriage? Once married, all things change.

a person responds To the convicting of the Holy Spirit and is acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the Son of God / His death, burial and bodily resurrection on the 3rd day -- a person wouldn't feel the need To repent if it weren't for the inner working Of the Holy Spirit.

Utterly disagree with you here.

If our repentance of sin was dependant on God's helping hand, that is partiality. God is impartial Acts 10:34.

The passages of scripture that you read that make you make that statement have to do with ''once'' we are saved. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, once we are saved. The Holy Spirit may make us further aware of our sin if we ask, IE if it does not cross barriers of partiality. You need to be very specific with your statements and message you are presenting. A message of God cherry picking some to regenerate is Calvinism and partiality. Partiality is at a height of wickedness.

We have the knowledge of right and wrong from Adam's sin Gen 3:22 and God gave us intelligence when He made us in His image and just beneath the angels. Intelligence + knowledge of evil = ability to repent.

Salvation doesn't become 'yours' until a person Accepts it -- thanking God the Father For His gift of salvation. And then the Holy Spirit comes to indwell

With your understanding of salvation, I have to ask, ''who on this planet would wilfully reject salvation?''.

''Dear sir, take the green pill and you have eternal bliss, take the red pill and you will have eternal torment'' ...why such a hard choice.

The difference between one going to hell over heaven cannot be luck or privilege. Unless you believe God is a wicked fool.

 

[Sue D.]

@King J. -- "who on this planet would willfully reject salvation?" -- I know of three people who have. One was my grandmother on my Dad's side of the family. She had no use for a 'bloody' religion. Christ having been crucified on the cross / shedding His blood. FYI -- 'wilfully' has two 'l's rather than one. I corrected your quote.

Another rejecter was a lady from another Forum who shared that she'd read the Bible through twice. She was here to get her law degree and went back to Hong Kong. Her thing was reading the religious literature from various belief systems. She was determined to pay for her own sins. When she read about Jesus Christ going to the cross for her --in her place -- she was upset. She would have Stopped the crucifixion. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their own sins and not let anyone else do that. If she ends up in hell when she dies -- so be it. She and I were on Private Conversation area and she invited me to investigate her belief system which she found much better. For herself -- Christianity would not be a consideration.

And the other person was on another Forum, also. He was an atheistic geneticist --strong on evolution. The rest of his family were Lutheran and received great comfort from their faith in God. He was miserable but was determined to stay with his atheistic stand as a Real scientist. I'd shared about all the scientists who were Also born again believers / Christians. His response was like -- good for them, that's not 'him'.

So , yes, unfortunately there Are those who knowingly, willfully reject salvation.

And, it's not 'my' understanding of salvation, it's what God's Word teaches about salvation. So -- I'm understanding what God's Word teaches about salvation.

You and your 'thing' about God's partiality. You have RCC beliefs mixed with other 'stuff'.

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism....but accepts from every nation the one who fears Him and does what is right. ... You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good new of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all."

Context is important.

And you're right --" the difference between going to hell over heaven cannot be luck or privilege" I won't repeat the rest of your comment. It has nothing to do with luck or privilege -- it Does have Everything to do with either accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ as being the Way, the Truth and the Life. And no man coming to the Father except through Jesus Christ. --- accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.

And it's Also true that God is the Only One who knows who will accept Him or reject Him. Salvation was given to the Jews 1st and then to the rest of the world. Who so ever will may come.

 

[Mary Magdalene]

@King J. -- "who on this planet would willfully reject salvation?" -- I know of three people who have. One was my grandmother on my Dad's side of the family. She had no use for a 'bloody' religion. Christ having been crucified on the cross / shedding His blood. FYI -- 'wilfully' has two 'l's rather than one. I corrected your quote.

Another rejecter was a lady from another Forum who shared that she'd read the Bible through twice. She was here to get her law degree and went back to Hong Kong. Her thing was reading the religious literature from various belief systems. She was determined to pay for her own sins. When she read about Jesus Christ going to the cross for her --in her place -- she was upset. She would have Stopped the crucifixion. Everyone needs to take responsibility for their own sins and not let anyone else do that. If she ends up in hell when she dies -- so be it. She and I were on Private Conversation area and she invited me to investigate her belief system which she found much better. For herself -- Christianity would not be a consideration.

And the other person was on another Forum, also. He was an atheistic geneticist --strong on evolution. The rest of his family were Lutheran and received great comfort from their faith in God. He was miserable but was determined to stay with his atheistic stand as a Real scientist. I'd shared about all the scientists who were Also born again believers / Christians. His response was like -- good for them, that's not 'him'.

So , yes, unfortunately there Are those who knowingly, willfully reject salvation.

And, it's not 'my' understanding of salvation, it's what God's Word teaches about salvation. So -- I'm understanding what God's Word teaches about salvation.

You and your 'thing' about God's partiality. You have RCC beliefs mixed with other 'stuff'.

Acts 10:34 "Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism....but accepts from every nation the one who fears Him and does what is right. ... You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good new of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all."

Context is important.

And you're right --" the difference between going to hell over heaven cannot be luck or privilege" I won't repeat the rest of your comment. It has nothing to do with luck or privilege -- it Does have Everything to do with either accepting or rejecting Jesus Christ as being the Way, the Truth and the Life. And no man coming to the Father except through Jesus Christ. --- accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.

And it's Also true that God is the Only One who knows who will accept Him or reject Him. Salvation was given to the Jews 1st and then to the rest of the world. Who so ever will may come.

Christians all over the place willfully reject the full salvation of "being made whole spirit, soul and body" - I Thess 5:23.

 

[Sue D.]

@Mary Magdalene -- KingJ had commented "who on this planet would willfully eject salvation' I was simply pointing out those 3 people I'd known who had. The rest of his comment was "with your understanding of salvation, he'd have to ask ...."

 

[Sue D.]

@Mary Magdalene -- what is your definition of a Christian?

 

[Mary Magdalene]

@Mary Magdalene -- what is your definition of a Christian?

To be more to the point, did you want the definition of a Cold, Hot or Lukewarm Christian?

Revelation 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Mary Magdalene -- again -- your definition of a Christian -- how does a person Become a Christian / born again believer?

 

[Mary Magdalene]

@ Mary Magdalene -- again -- your definition of a Christian -- how does a person Become a Christian / born again believer?

You're speaking of the initial conception of Christ inside of christian, correct? Not how a christian evolves into the full illumination of Jesus Christ, is that correct?