What to expect in Hell

[Brother-Paul]

God's ways are not our ways, we have to take Him at His Word, like it or not.

Isaiah 55:6-9 (NKJV)
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

John 12:48
The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

 

[Butch5]

How is that free will? Anything less then true free will is not evidence of one who is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

God wants to be good. He can be wicked. He chooses not to be. As such He has to honor the free will of those who don't want to be with Him. That is what hell is.

If you had a daughter and a potential husband said to her '''marry me or die''', will you say that guy is a good guy? That guy is a wonderful advocate of free will and all that is good, holy and righteous.

My post has nothing to do with free will. The title is what to expect in Hell. Hell is the grave. That's where dead people go. They don't expect anything because they are dead. Dead people have no expectations. That's why I posted what I did.

 

[KingJ]

My post has nothing to do with free will. The title is what to expect in Hell. Hell is the grave. That's where dead people go. They don't expect anything because they are dead. Dead people have no expectations. That's why I posted what I did.

All I have done is considered 1 John 1:5, Psalm 145:17 and Psalm 136:1 with your belief of annihilationism.

God annihilating His enemies is un-scriptural because of scripture like the above and those that speak to eternal punishment like Matt 25:46.

 

[Butch5]

All I have done is considered 1 John 1:5, Psalm 145:17 and Psalm 136:1 with your belief of annihilationism.

God annihilating His enemies is un-scriptural because of scripture like the above and those that speak to eternal punishment like Matt 25:46.

I'm not sure where you're going with the free will argument.

It's not un-biblical. It's what the Scriptures teach. Mathew 25:46 doesn't speak of eternal punishment. The Greek word "aionios" in that passage is poorly translated by the English translators. It doesn't mean eternal. It means for the age. Dead people can't be tormented.

 

[A. Christian]

Yes and it is a very important discussion. If anyone espouses that God is pro actively torturing people in a type of brazen bull for all eternity, they are espousing that God is.....wicked. Much more wicked then the devil.

When scripture tells us with crystal clarity that God is good Psalm 136:1 and has no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

Fire is worse. Anyone who has been burnt with fire will agree with me.


Well hell fire is exactly that. The fact that God refers to separation from Him as though one is on fire is a terrifying truth indeed.

Ok my only question is can God be loving and just to force a relationship on someonewho does not want to be with God? Or can a God who gives gifts without repenting then take away the gift of being a living soul?

This is my personal belief but I believe that we have infinite worth to God because he has invested himself in us by creating us in his image and giving us a place in his heart. That is how the breath of God created a living soul, something distinct from the rest of creation. If we were to cease to exist than what would happen to what God invested into us? I do not see that which was invested going back to God because then it wouldn't be an investment without the risk. And without the investment of one's self how can there be true love. True love is about sacrifice and risk of not being loved back. If what was invested in us also ceased to disappear, then is God less than he was having lost something?

That is why I believe that the human race is firstly an eternal race and that with God or without God, we will always exist. God says that hell was not created for humanity but for the angels that rebelled. He also expresses his wish that everyone accept his grace. Those who do reject the person of Christ and his relationship obviously can't be in the presence of God. That is the last thing that they will want. Hell would be torment but it would be a torment that they freely chose. And because of God investing his heart in them I believe that God will also be experiencing torment himself. God is not wicked for letting people choose whether to love him or not.

 

[A. Christian]

Also want to point out that the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and to some extent the Seventh Day Adventist are all cults. The main cults that claim christianity. And they all deny an eternal hell. Are you telling me that everything else they believe is messed up, except for this one belief? Or maybe this belief is a sign of theology that has lost it's grounding in Jesus?

 

[B-A-C]

Also want to point out that the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, and to some extent the Seventh Day Adventist are all cults.

I am not 7th day adventist. Never attended one of their churches. But on what grounds do you consider them a cult?

 

[A. Christian]

I am not 7th day adventist. Never attended one of their churches. But on what grounds do you consider them a cult?

I said to some extent. But I will explain.
1 cults are very elitist. 7th day adventist, mormons, and Jehovah's witnesses all claim that they are the only true church. 7th day adventists do thia with their saturday sabbath. Some even go as far as saying that those who worship on sunday have the mark of the beast.
2. Cults have very strict rules that must be followed these rules often go into dietary rules. Like mormons not drinking coffee or tea. A lot of 7th day adventists believe that they have to be strict vegatarians as that was Gods original plan for us and thry use Daniel's diet to back it up. There arevother rules that 7th day adventists are required to observe.
3. Cults often have their own literature. Mormons have their own scriptures, witnesses have the watch tower magazine that interprets scripture for them, and the adventists have the writings of their founder and prophet ellen g white. The most popular is the great controversy. Now cults do hold their literature to different levels of authority. Like mormons love the book of mormon way more than adventists love the great controvery. Thatvsaid adventist still distribute the book just as much as they distribute the bible.
4. Cults have leaders that tell the members what to believe. The mormons have their prophets the witnesses have some committee at the watchtower society and adventists have their presidents.
5. Cults members blindly believe what they are told by the leadership. This is where the adventists are beginning to diverge from being a cult since I am meeting more and more adventists who are holding their own beliefs outside of what their leadership is offering them.

Also the seventh day adventists is an offshoot of the millerite movement where william miller made several false predictions about Jesus returning to earth. This just shows you where the founders heads were at when establishing the adventists.

So I believe that they are a cult but I think that they could be moving away from that status.

 

[KingJ]

I'm not sure where you're going with the free will argument.

The free will argument alone debunks ''annihilation''. No free will is wicked. God is not wicked. Accept me or die, is not free will.

It's not un-biblical. It's what the Scriptures teach. Mathew 25:46 doesn't speak of eternal punishment. The Greek word "aionios" in that passage is poorly translated by the English translators. It doesn't mean eternal. It means for the age. Dead people can't be tormented.

The word is used to describe eternal life as well. So if you remove eternal from punishment you need to remove it from life too.

 

[KingJ]

Ok my only question is can God be loving and just to force a relationship on someonewho does not want to be with God?

No. No free will is wicked and evidence of zero love. Just ask a lady forced to marry a guy she does not want to marry. Heck, ask a rape victim if they thought their rapist loved them.

Or can a God who gives gifts without repenting then take away the gift of being a living soul?

Well God can do whatever He wants. He decides to be good to us Psalm 136:1 in all His ways Psalm 145:17. So, no. Free will demands that those who reject Him be able to live on in a place away from Him.

 

[Butch5]

The free will argument alone debunks ''annihilation''. No free will is wicked. God is not wicked. Accept me or die, is not free will.

This is a non sequitur. The free will argument has nothing to do with Annihilation. One can't reason away what the Scriptures plainly state. "Accept me or die" is free will.

The word is used to describe eternal life as well. So if you remove eternal from punishment you need to remove it from life too.

That's fine. It still doesn't mean eternal. It can't mean eternal. It's used in the Bible plenty of times of things that are not eternal. Likewise, Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. If it ends, it's not eternal.

 

[KingJ]

Accept me or die" is free will.

???? .

Free will = the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

This is a non sequitur. The free will argument has nothing to do with Annihilation.

It has everything to with it. God...wants....a ....relationship with mankind. Jesus our groom, we the bride. Free will does not have to exist as God is God. But free will does exist because God is good. Since God is good, the words '''marry me or die'' cannot exist.

One can't reason away what the Scriptures plainly state.

Cherry picked scriptures that exclude a proper understanding of God. Calvinists teach partiality as they also believe ''scriptures plainly state'' certain facts. You are doing the same thing.

Scriptures clearly state that God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. They clearly state that He is good Psalm 136:1. They clearly state that He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. They clearly state that He wants a relationship with mankind. Our reality which He created...clearly states..... that any groom who says to my daughter ''marry me or die'' has no love.

Espousing God does this, is representing Him to the unsaved as a devil. A being that gives us the ability to grasp the wickedness of ''accept me or die'', does exactly that. I think not.

Free will = good.
No free will = wicked.

God is good Psalm 136:1. You have hence cherry picked scripture and or misunderstood it. Something like ''go throw yourself off a building, scripture clearly states angels will catch you''.

 

[Butch5]

???? .

Free will = the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

It has everything to with it. God...wants....a ....relationship with mankind. Jesus our groom, we the bride. Free will does not have to exist as God is God. But free will does exist because God is good. Since God is good, the words '''marry me or die'' cannot exist.

Cherry picked scriptures that exclude a proper understanding of God. Calvinists teach partiality as they also believe ''scriptures plainly state'' certain facts. You are doing the same thing.

Scriptures clearly state that God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17. They clearly state that He is good Psalm 136:1. They clearly state that He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. They clearly state that He wants a relationship with mankind. Our reality which He created...clearly states..... that any groom who says to my daughter ''marry me or die'' has no love.

Espousing God does this, is representing Him to the unsaved as a devil. A being that gives us the ability to grasp the wickedness of ''accept me or die'', does exactly that. I think not.

Free will = good.
No free will = wicked.

God is good Psalm 136:1. You have hence cherry picked scripture and or misunderstood it. Something like ''go throw yourself off a building, scripture clearly states angels will catch you''.

As I said, your argument is a non sequitur. It's a logical fallacy. Therefore, your reasoning is flawed and invalid. You can quote the passages of Scripture, but that doesn't change your flawed reasoning. Free will is the ability to choose. We're given that option, choose life or choose death. You're gonna need another argument, one that is valid. It's not your's to decide what words mean.

 

[KingJ]

As I said, your argument is a non sequitur. It's a logical fallacy. Therefore, your reasoning is flawed and invalid. You can quote the passages of Scripture, but that doesn't change your flawed reasoning. Free will is the ability to choose. We're given that option, choose life or choose death.

It is not flawed or non sequitur. The choice is not life or death. Death for Adam was not annihilation. Your understanding is flawed.

You're gonna need another argument, one that is valid.

No I don't. We serve God because He is good Psalm 136:1. If one can prove He is wicked, we will not serve Him.

You need to better present your counter argument. Not simply say ''non sequitur''.

It's not your's to decide what words mean

Which ones?

 

[Brother-Paul]

It's not un-biblical. It's what the Scriptures teach. Mathew 25:46 doesn't speak of eternal punishment. The Greek word "aionios" in that passage is poorly translated by the English translators. It doesn't mean eternal. It means for the age. Dead people can't be tormented.

From the Strongs Dictionary and Vine's Words...

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Greek Strong's Number: 166 [Everlasting]
Greek Word: αἰώνιος
Transliteration: aiōnios
Phonetic Pronunciation: ahee-o'-nee-os
Root: from <G165>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:208,31
Part of Speech: adj
Vine's Words: Eternal, Everlasting

English Words used in KJV:
eternal 42
everlasting 25

from <G165> (aion); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) :- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

and

Greek Strong's Number: 2851 [Punishment]
Greek Word: κόλασις
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Pronunciation: kol'-as-is
Root: from <G2849>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 3:816,451
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Punishment

English Words used in KJV:
punishment 1
torment 1

from <G2849> (kolazo); penal infliction :- punishment, torment.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

 

[Butch5]

It is not flawed or non sequitur. The choice is not life or death. Death for Adam was not annihilation. Your reasoning and understanding is flawed.

It is flawed. There's no connection between God being good and free will. If God never created anything, there would be no free will, however, God would still be good. Man's free will has no bearing on God.

No I don't. We serve God because He is good Psalm 136:1. If one can prove He is wicked, we will not serve Him.

Unless you want to have an irrational argument, you do.

You need to better present your counter argument. Not simply say ''non sequitur''.

There's no counter argument to be made. Your argument is invalid. God is the ultimate standard. If the Bible says that God is good and that the dead are destroyed, then the word Good can incorporate the idea that the dead are destroyed. You're trying to impose you own definition of Good onto the Scriptures. You're not the ultimate authority.

Which ones?

The word Good. As I said above, the Bible says that God is good. It also says that the dead will be no more. Therefore being good can incorporate the dead being no more.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The free will argument alone debunks ''annihilation''. No free will is wicked. God is not wicked. Accept me or die, is not free will.

Free will, in the right context, is Free Will to belong to sin, the world and the devil, or accept God's Free Gift of Salvation through repentance and Jesus. This means you have Free Will to accept God or reject Him, in other words, God is saying... I will not push myself on you, I have shown my love for the world through Jesus and His death on the cross, you have free will to accept it or reject it. The choice is yours but know the facts, know the outcome, it is your choice.

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

We all have Free Will to choose, God will not push anything on us, He Loves the World, He wants all to be saved, He gives us a free will choice, that is the context, but he who rejects God's Free Gift of Salvation, He who chooses not to believe... is condemned already, that is their choice. Free Will, Life Eternal, or Death Eternal.

God is Love that is why He gives Free Will to accept Him or not. We choose our own destiny.

The word is used to describe eternal life as well. So if you remove eternal from punishment you need to remove it from life too.

 

[Butch5]

From the Strongs Dictionary and Vine's Words...

Matthew 25:46 (NKJV)
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Greek Strong's Number: 166 [Everlasting]
Greek Word: αἰώνιος
Transliteration: aiōnios
Phonetic Pronunciation: ahee-o'-nee-os
Root: from <G165>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:208,31
Part of Speech: adj
Vine's Words: Eternal, Everlasting

English Words used in KJV:
eternal 42
everlasting 25

from <G165> (aion); perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) :- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

and

Greek Strong's Number: 2851 [Punishment]
Greek Word: κόλασις
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Pronunciation: kol'-as-is
Root: from <G2849>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 3:816,451
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Punishment

English Words used in KJV:
punishment 1
torment 1

from <G2849> (kolazo); penal infliction :- punishment, torment.
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the dictionary definition of aion. My question to you would be, whose words carry more weight? Those of the translators who wrote the lexicons or those of Jesus and the Scriptures?

NKJ Matt. 12:32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
NKJ Mk. 10:30 "who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time-- houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions-- and in the age to come, eternal life.
NKJ Lk. 18:30 "who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life."
NKJ Heb. 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

If eternity never ends, how can there be this eternity and the eternity to come?

NKJ Matt. 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
NKJ Matt. 13:49 "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
NKJ Matt. 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
NKJ Matt. 28:20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Eternity means unending, yet here we see Jesus and the apostles clearly speaking of the end of the age, aion.

We can go with the theologians, who clearly have a bias, or we can go with the words of Scripture. The English word eternity means unending. Clearly from these passages an "aion" ends. Thus aion cannot mean eternity. These are just a few passages there are plenty more.

 

[Brother-Paul]

There's no connection between God being good and free will. If God never created anything, there would be no free will, however, God would still be good. Man's free will has no bearing on God.

I have to disagree here brother.

There is a connection between God being good and Free Will. I feel it is the Free Will part that gets misunderstood.

Allow me to share my thoughts.

God is good, God is Love, in Him is no darkness, no wickedness, no sin. God is Love.

It is because God loves us He gives us all 'Free Will'. If He didn't He would be pushing His love on us, He doesn't do that, He gives us Free Will.

But the Free Will He gives, in context, is Free Will to accept Him, accept what He has done for us, Free Will to accept the Free Gift of Salvation or reject it, He gives Free Will because He loves us.

So everyone has the same chance, through life to our last breath, we have 'Free Will' to accept Him and His Love, through Jesus, or live in sin, belonging to 'Sin, the World and the devil'. If God is not our Father, the devil is! The choice is ours, through His Free will He lets us choose.

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [It is a Free Will Choice through His Love]
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[Butch5]

I have to disagree here brother.

There is a connection between God being good and Free Will. I feel it is the Free Will part that gets misunderstood.

Allow me to share my thoughts.

God is good, God is Love, in Him is no darkness, no wickedness, no sin. God is Love.

It is because God loves us He gives us all 'Free Will'. If He didn't He would be pushing His love on us, He doesn't do that, He gives us Free Will.

But the Free Will He gives, in context, is Free Will to accept Him, accept what He has done for us, Free Will to accept the Free Gift of Salvation or reject it, He gives Free Will because He loves us.

So everyone has the same chance, through life to our last breath, we have 'Free Will' to accept Him and His Love, through Jesus, or live in sin, belonging to 'Sin, the World and the devil'. If God is not our Father, the devil is! The choice is ours, through His Free will He lets us choose.

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [It is a Free Will Choice through His Love]
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

OK, but how does this tie the two together?