What to expect in Hell

[Dave M]

here is what you said


Butch5
New Add bookmark Monday at 9:03 PM #39

Dave M said:
In Jesus own words he describes the horror of hell for the non believers he is agaony in a everlasting hell fire that is constant torment, this is exactly what Jesus is teaching in this parable apparently this type of spiritual fire goes on forever adn you can not escape it by death. Why do people think we are living a life that has no consequences, the way you live now will effect if you are punished forever or rewarded forever A just God punishes and rewards, if people were punished and just destroyed they could live with no consequences,

V=24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

The Rich Man and Lazarus
(John 5:39-47)
19Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor.
20And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores
21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.d And the rich man also died and was buried.
23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.
24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’
25But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer.
26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’
27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house,
28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’
Click to expand...

This parable is not about an afterlife. It's a judgment against the leadership of Israel. Firstly notice that Jesus is talking to the Scribes and Pharisees.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matt. 13:10-15 KJV)

Jesus spoke to them in parables that hearing the would hear and not understand. This would tell us that the most plain understanding of the text isn't what Jesus meant. The Scribes and Pharisees would be able to understand the most plain understanding. Yet, the weren't supposed to. To claim this is an actual event proves troublesome. Firstly, Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna, the Rich Man is in Hades. Hades is the grave. It's not a place of fire. So why is the Rich Man suffering in flames? Note that the Rich Man is an Israelite. Notice that the Rich Man has five brothers, Levi had five brothers. Levi is the man from which the tribe of Levi came. The Levites. The Levites are the ones who were the priests. These were the ones in leadership in Israel. So, the Rich Man represents the leadership of Israel. But why is he suffering in flames. Hades is not a place of fire. However, there is a passage in Deuteronomy that speaks of a fire burning in Hades. This passage is about Israel.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.1
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1 (Deut. 32:15-22 KJV)

This passage is part of the song of Moses and would be familiar to the Priesthood. We can see from this that the fire is God's anger and He says it will burn to the lowest Hell or Hades. The Rich Man is suffering God's anger. The Priesthood would shortly suffer God's anger when they crucified Christ. We're also told that the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. Purple was the color kings. While Israel didn't have a king proper, the priesthood did fill that roll. The priests also wore fine linen. Notice too that the Rich man wanted Lazarus sent to warn his brothers. What does Abraham say? They have Moses and the Prophets. How would Moses and the Prophets keep the Rich Man's brothers from ending up where he was? The answer was in Moses and the Prophets. They had missed it. Notice too that the Rich Man was unable to get any relief because there was a great chasm between them that couldn't be crossed. Jesus was warning them of the coming judgment. When they crucified Him God left the Temple and sent the Romans in to destroy it. It hasn't been rebuilt. The priesthood has been exiled for a time that God had determined and they can get no relief until that time is fulfilled.

There are also a lot of problems if we try to say this is an actual event One of the problems is that all three men that are mentioned have body parts. According to popular belief bodies don't go into eternal torment, that supposedly souls and or spirits. Yet we see bodies. However, we do find bodies in the grave. Hades is the grave. Again, Hades is not where Jesus said the wicked would be cast. That was Gehenna. Another problem is that there is a great gulf between them yet they're chatting with one another. There's quite a but more that could be said on this passage but this should be enough for starters.

 

[Dave M]

double post

 

[Dave M]

This parable is not about an afterlife.

2 One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.d And the rich man also died and was buried

. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

please explain what these passage say to you if they are not about the after life

 

[Butch5]

here is what you said


Butch5
New Add bookmark Monday at 9:03 PM #39

This parable is not about an afterlife. It's a judgment against the leadership of Israel. Firstly notice that Jesus is talking to the Scribes and Pharisees.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Matt. 13:10-15 KJV)

Jesus spoke to them in parables that hearing the would hear and not understand. This would tell us that the most plain understanding of the text isn't what Jesus meant. The Scribes and Pharisees would be able to understand the most plain understanding. Yet, the weren't supposed to. To claim this is an actual event proves troublesome. Firstly, Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna, the Rich Man is in Hades. Hades is the grave. It's not a place of fire. So why is the Rich Man suffering in flames? Note that the Rich Man is an Israelite. Notice that the Rich Man has five brothers, Levi had five brothers. Levi is the man from which the tribe of Levi came. The Levites. The Levites are the ones who were the priests. These were the ones in leadership in Israel. So, the Rich Man represents the leadership of Israel. But why is he suffering in flames. Hades is not a place of fire. However, there is a passage in Deuteronomy that speaks of a fire burning in Hades. This passage is about Israel.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.1
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1 (Deut. 32:15-22 KJV)

This passage is part of the song of Moses and would be familiar to the Priesthood. We can see from this that the fire is God's anger and He says it will burn to the lowest Hell or Hades. The Rich Man is suffering God's anger. The Priesthood would shortly suffer God's anger when they crucified Christ. We're also told that the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. Purple was the color kings. While Israel didn't have a king proper, the priesthood did fill that roll. The priests also wore fine linen. Notice too that the Rich man wanted Lazarus sent to warn his brothers. What does Abraham say? They have Moses and the Prophets. How would Moses and the Prophets keep the Rich Man's brothers from ending up where he was? The answer was in Moses and the Prophets. They had missed it. Notice too that the Rich Man was unable to get any relief because there was a great chasm between them that couldn't be crossed. Jesus was warning them of the coming judgment. When they crucified Him God left the Temple and sent the Romans in to destroy it. It hasn't been rebuilt. The priesthood has been exiled for a time that God had determined and they can get no relief until that time is fulfilled.

There are also a lot of problems if we try to say this is an actual event One of the problems is that all three men that are mentioned have body parts. According to popular belief bodies don't go into eternal torment, that supposedly souls and or spirits. Yet we see bodies. However, we do find bodies in the grave. Hades is the grave. Again, Hades is not where Jesus said the wicked would be cast. That was Gehenna. Another problem is that there is a great gulf between them yet they're chatting with one another. There's quite a but more that could be said on this passage but this should be enough for starters.

This is a starting point. There is more that could be said on this parable. The details in this story are key to understanding it.

 

[Dave M]

This is a starting point. There is more that could be said on this parable. The details in this story are key to understanding it.

most all Christian scholars agree this a real true story as it is the only time he actually uses names.

 

[Butch5]

most all Christian scholars agree this a real true story as it is the only time he actually uses names.

They also believe dead people are alive. People interpret Scripture based on their preconceptions. This is one of the they define the word aionios as eternal when Scripture shows clearly that it can't mean eternal. One of the problems I find within Christendom is that Christians, for some reason, throw logic and common sense out the window when it comes to the Scriptures. They believe the Scriptures are saying things that they would never believe in the real world. If I told someone I went to the morgue last night and was conversing with all of the dead people there, they'd likely think I was nuts. Yet those people read the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man and assume it's an actual event. The Bible is full of parables, stories, figures of speech, allegories, and the like. Yet for some .people ignore this and want to read everything literally. I'm all for reading the Bible literally, however, when a literal interpretation becomes bazaar there's reason to question the literal interpretation. Take this subject of example, apart from a few passages of Scripture that one could misunderstand, what evidence is that the dead are alive. Can we see them? No. Can we talk to them? No. Is there anyway that we can verify that the dead are alive? No. This whole belief is founded on a few passages of Scripture. Now, the Scriptures are true and accurate. The question is, is our interpretation of them accurate? There are quite a few passages of Scripture that tell us that the dead, know nothing, cannot praise God, have no thoughts, have no memory, and so on. So, how do we reconcile all of these passages? Now keep in mind that these passages are describing the dead. The few passages used to argue that the dead are alive need to be reconciled with these passages. None of the passages used to state that the dead are alive actually state that, it's merely infer from them. So when we see parables, stories, allegories, and prophesy where dead people seem to be alive we have to ask, how can this be? The first clue that dead people can't do anything. Therefore, we should consider that this is not a literal. Or, in the case of Prophesy, they are not alive at this time.

 

[Butch5]

2 One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.d And the rich man also died and was buried

. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

please explain what these passage say to you if they are not about the after life

Sure. The both died. The rich man is in the grave, Hades. He is a Jew and represents the priesthood that was ruling Israel in Jesus' day. This is why he is dressed in purple and fine linen. He is suffering in fire in Hades. As I quoted the passage from Deut. 32, he is suffering the God's anger. Consider this passage from the Song of Moses. Remember, shortly after Jesus gave this parable the Jews would crucify Him and bring down God's anger upon themselves.

15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.1
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.1
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.1
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the LORD hath not done all this.1
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
30 How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the LORD had shut them up?
31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.
32 For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:1
33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures?
35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.1
37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.1
39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.1
44 And Moses came and spake all the words of this song in the ears of the people, he, and Hoshea the son of Nun.1
45 And Moses made an end of speaking all these words to all Israel: (Deut. 32:15-45 KJV)

 

[Dave M]

Take this subject of example, apart from a few passages of Scripture that one could misunderstand,1 what evidence is that the dead are alive. Can we see them? No. Can we talk to them? No.2 Is there anyway that we can verify that the dead are alive? No. This whole belief is founded on a few passages of Scripture. Now, the Scriptures are true and accurate. The question is, is our interpretation of them accurate?

1.
Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows
.
2 Corinthians 12:4
And he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.


2. that is called faith
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

the main evedience we know the dead all alive is because my lord and savior conquered death on the cross and was raised on the third day,, Jesus lives as does all that believe in him.

There are quite a few passages of Scripture that tell us that the dead, know nothing, cannot praise God, have no thoughts, have no memory, and so on.

the souls under the throne of God in the book of revelation know much and have thought and memory of what happened to them,

Lazarus who burning in the fire, knew he did not want his brothers to come to this place of torment. he had thoughts memory

Mosses came from the dead after he died to speak with Jesus

so many examples,

 

[Butch5]

1.
Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows
.
2 Corinthians 12:4
And he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.


2. that is called faith
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

the main evedience we know the dead all alive is because my lord and savior conquered death on the cross and was raised on the third day,, Jesus lives as does all that believe in him.





the souls under the throne of God in the book of revelation know much and have thought and memory of what happened to them,

Lazarus who burning in the fire, knew he did not want his brothers to come to this place of torment. he had thoughts memory

Mosses came from the dead after he died to speak with Jesus

so many examples,

I don't have time at the moment to reply in full. Ill give you something for consideration. The passages I spoke of about the dead knowing nothing and so on, are they wrong?

Which of the passage you've posted here teaches that the dead are alive?

 

[Dave M]

Have a good night, Butch if you can see it is not I that can show you

The passages I spoke of about the dead knowing nothing and so on, are they wrong?

Which of the passage you've posted here teaches that the dead are alive?

I appreciate your replies

 

[Yamira]

Greetings to you all... I've read almost just about half of what's is being discussed about the word of God... Please I dont know any better & unwise about the bible because I fear to hear certain things & dont read it for some time but Do I believe Jesus died for our sins and whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life. Yes I do believe & If givin the chance to actually SEE JESUS IN FRONT OF ME i will fall flat in my face and cry to Him to give me mercy & accept His grace and be in right standing with Father God... It is scary to know Yes Gods wrath towards the sinners who do not want to repent at all and goes about there day rejecting the Gospel of Jesus. I am NOT at all to much familiar with the bible but does not mean Im not sensitive to Heavenly Father threw Jesus,, now as your discussion about the bible who is actually in the right standing of Father God threw Our only Savior Jesus... Because from my experience I've seen for myself many things, Theology?? False teachers?? Who is the wolf?? Should I wear skirts, makeup, or jewelry? Should I not eat pork? Or should I leave my kids who I love soo much because I'm actually the only who knows the truth & walk away from them because I know their life is not in right standard but im trying now to lead them towards Father God.. I TRULY CRY... LORD HAVE MERCY ON ME & IF I SAY ANYTHING AGAINST YOUR WORD, but who should we commit 2? the Old testament & New testament, which testament should should we follow? Woww I've seen Christian I can not say myself because I'm for one is seeking of my savior Jesus to deliver me from sooo much darkness... Do you all know each and every persons heart? If I say I follow darkness for so long and i did enjoyed it but dont want to seek no longer in darkness knowing the truth & continued my life but my heart cries because I no longer want to be there, would you judge me right away & I saw a scripture saying as such there is no forgiving of such willfully sin? Would you pray for me? Does that mean those who are Christians and willfully sin there is no hope anymore? Sanctification? Because reading to the back & forth among the brothers is the very disturbing thing & as a young Christian to read, the only reason I say is because i don't know the BIBLE but hearing preaching and they quoting the bible & all... So what commandment do we follow? Meaning what should we do & dont do?? WHERE IS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THIS DISCUSSION?? Aren't we supposed to be lead by the HOLY SPIRIT to guide us in ALL TRUTH??
I cried a sincere cry why so much division in the church... "CHURCH" No why is there so much division in speaking God's word... The bible is a guide line Yes it is, it shows how He dealth with many individuals in the old & new testament... We learn God's character, Jesus's character how he dealth with them in the bible we see His anger & wrath towards sins,, We also see His compassion, Noah what did God do? Genises 9 8-17 What is happening among the body of Christ,, who IS anyone to judge & qoute many scriptures in this??Doesn't Father God speak?? If He speaks to me in my individual life apart from the bible & bring me closer to Him is that a sin? I'm not David, moses, pual, or anyone in the bible I'm just me Yamira who.seeks Jesus

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5
Greetings,

I'm surprised that this is even an issue. While it's clear in the Scriptures, the evidence in the Early Church is overwhelming.

thank you for your reply. Do you mind expanding on that a bit for me?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@Brother-Paul
Greetings,

Good point brother, but I feel God's Free Will choice is given in accordance with scripture that relates to Him.

As you say if we consider Free Will in earthly terms we miss the point.

I do believe God's Free Will, is God's choice, He could give us a Free will choice, He could take it away. But He chose to give all the world, that is every soul in the world, the same Free Will choice.

I have detailed this in [HASH=551]#post[/HASH] 310, from God's prospective. Because God is Love, because God doesn't want any to be lost, He gives ALL the same Free Will choice, which is showing His Love for the world, all mankind, From God's prospective, He is offering His Love to ALL, but because He is a loving God, He does not force His love on us, He gives us all chance to repent, turn away from wickedness and come to Him through Jesus.

The key point here, is have you have suggested, it relates to SIN and Repentance. God hates Sin, God is Love, He offers us a path, He offer us a doorway, He offers us a better way, a Free Will choice to be Free from Sin.

Bless you

thank you for your reply,

would it be fair to say that Eve quite liked the idea of free will?
And perhaps Adam was inclined to follow his flesh?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5
Greetings,



thank you for your reply. Do you mind expanding on that a bit for me?


Bless you ....><>

I just meant that I'm surprised that the idea of free will is an issue. It's all over the Scriptures and early church.

 

[Butch5]

1.
Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Luke 23:43
And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows
.
2 Corinthians 12:4
And he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.


2. that is called faith
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

the main evedience we know the dead all alive is because my lord and savior conquered death on the cross and was raised on the third day,, Jesus lives as does all that believe in him.



the souls under the throne of God in the book of revelation know much and have thought and memory of what happened to them,

Lazarus who burning in the fire, knew he did not want his brothers to come to this place of torment. he had thoughts memory

Mosses came from the dead after he died to speak with Jesus

so many examples,

Dave, I'm familiar with all of these passages. But we can't pit passage against passage. As I said there are quite a few passages that speaks of the dead and their inability to do anything. Surely we don't just ignore them? So how do we reconcile all of these passages?'

3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.1
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:3-4 KJV)

5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. (Eccl. 9:5-6 KJV)

17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.1
18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.
(Isa. 38:17-19 KJV)

Here are just a few passages Dave. What do we do with them?

 

[Butch5]

Have a good night, Butch if you can see it is not I that can show you




I appreciate your replies

You're welcome!

 

[B-A-C]

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps.
146:3-4 KJV)

Some better translations.

Psa 143:4;
(GNB) When they die, they return to the dust; on that day all their plans come to an end.
(GW) When they breathe their last breath, they return to the ground. On that day their plans come to an end.
(MSG) Mere humans don't have what it takes; when they die, their projects die with them.
(NIrV) When they die, they return to the ground. On that very day their plans are bound to fail.
(NIV) When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.
(NLT) When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.

Ecc 9:6;
(ASV) As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
(ESV) Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
(GNB) Their loves, their hates, their passions, all died with them. They will never again take part in anything that happens in this world.
(GW) Their love, their hate, and their passions have already vanished. They will never again take part in anything that happens under the sun.
(MSG) Their loves, their hates, yes, even their dreams, are long gone. There's not a trace of them left in the affairs of this earth.
(NAS77) Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
(NASB) Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

Isa 38:18;
(ASV) For Sheol cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: They that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
(ESV) For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.
(GNB) No one in the world of the dead can praise you; The dead cannot trust in your faithfulness.
(GW) Sheol doesn't thank you! Death doesn't praise you! Those who go down to the pit cannot expect you to be faithful.
(NAS77) "For Sheol cannot thank Thee, Death cannot praise Thee; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Thy faithfulness.
(NASB) "For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.

None of these verses say people can't think or remember.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul
Greetings,

thank you for your reply,

would it be fair to say that Eve quite liked the idea of free will?
And perhaps Adam was inclined to follow his flesh?

Bless you ....><>

Greetings brother,

There are two different situations when considering your comments.

I could reply by saying... Eve had a free will choice, the deceiver tempted her and she chose to sin. The devil doesn't make us sin, he tempts us by dressing up a lie.

Regarding Adam, He knew they were not to eat from the tree God told them not to eat from, but this beautiful woman looked into his eyes, the deceiver cunningly tempted Adam using Eve, he knew if he tried to tempt Adam to eat from the tree he would doubtfully do so. The devil loves the triangle system, tempt the most vulnerable, in this case Eve, then tempt Adam through the woman.

But my reply is slightly different here brother. Adam and Eve had not sinned until they were tempted, and allowed themselves to sin. Prior to the Fall, they were righteous, no sin in them at all. So I don't think we can consider the Free Will God gives until after the Fall, the period we all live in, until Christ restores all.

Here we look at Free Will that God GIVES 'ALL'.

What is the Free Will that God gives ALL? - It is the Free Will to choose, whether we accept God's Free Gift of Salvation through Jesus OR to reject His Loving Offer and remain in Sin, the world and the devil.

God's Free Will after the fall was initially for the Jews, not the gentiles, so after Jesus' ministry, death and resurrection is the period we are looking at, The Gentile Period, in which all Jews and Gentiles have the same Free Will choice, come to me through Jesus, be forgiven, be born again, be Saved OR continue in sin, where the devil is your father, belonging to sin, the world and the devil.

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world [ALL humans] that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

The Free Will choice, given by God, through Jesus, is that we can choose to come to God and be saved OR remain in sin, belonging to sin, the world and the devil.

God is Love. In His love for the world, all mankind, He allowed Jesus to die for our sins, so that through Him we can be saved. In His Love and tender Mercy He gives us all the same, Free Will choice. If God did not give us the Free Will choice and demanded we come to Him, He would not be shoe=wing He is a loving God, He shows He is loving by the Free Will choice.

Any choice has more than one option, it couldn't be a choice if there were not options.

So as we see in John 3 above, God confirms His love, confirms He is a Loving God, by giving us the Free Will choice to come to Him. So we come to Him or we don't, that is the choice.
If we come to Him He tells us the benefits, if we choose not to come to Him He tells us the penalties, the disadvantages
Each are clearly laid out, He confirms both options, no one will have an excuse.

John 3:18-21 goes on to tell us who will be condemned and who will not be condemned.

In His amazing love, He also gives us time to choose, all our life on earth, right up to our last breath. That is amazing love.

That is as I see the Free Will choice from scripture.

Bless you, Jesus is Lord. \o/

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings and thank you Brother-Paul,

may i try again?
(not that i tried very hard last time!)

For in Him we live, and move, and have our being;

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.
Acts 17:30-31

It may be that there is a difference between 'free will' and choosing?

There was but one 'choice' until temptation came to choose another 'choice'.
Who planted the idea of using 'free will' into Eve's thoughts?

[some may not appreciate this next bit] Eve was, to quote Adam, "
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. "
Genesis 2:23

hence,

And perhaps Adam was inclined to follow his flesh?

According to the Bible, believers are led by, filled with and walk by, the Spirit. No longer slaves to the flesh.

According to Jesus
For whosoever shall do the will of My Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.
Matthew 12:50

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 6:38

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:20

The more i think about it, Brother, the more i see the whole concept of 'free will', as it is often and mostly propagated, as a soft and fluffy representation of our actual need to obey a God Who states His will. It gives the idea that there is no real pressing moment in it all but that we can choose, if we want to. What leads from there is the sneaky notion of pride, given that we chose the best choice so therefore we get the prize [clever us!]

It is useful to start at Genesis, though.

However, i realize that this whole 'free will' subject is not specifically in line with this thread and that perhaps a new one might be in order?

Before i go, sometimes [or often] we hear [or say] that we have a decision to make regarding one thing or another.
Now, add to this, that the 'we' here is Believers and that it may involve seeking or doing God's will. {no doubt you understand me?}
My take is, presently, that IF God had a decision for us, so to speak, which He doesn't usually [because He tells us what to do or what He is wanting us to do - as those who are now filled with and by His Spirit, abiding in Him no longer living for themselves} that IF God had a direction for us to take, He would present it to us and there would be no confusion.... until.... we add flesh to it, by reasoning or doubting or plain rebellion. all directed to our thoughts by the enemy, NOT God. It is in this case, nothing to do with free will but rather the option of using the false 'free will' as a way to avoid doing all that is required of us, not by us but by God, Who is to be obeyed because He is. {everyone planet wide has no problems obeying the other things He has set in place, like breathing, eating drinking etc etc etc}

Remember when John fell as if one dead? Free will? No.
The Lord is not some fluffy god who gives free will to everyone. {do i hear a few eeeeks!!!? a tearing of the clothes?} He tells us and we either listen to Him or the temptation to rebel and disobey (not listen)
Do we forget Who we are talking about? Methinks, often we do.

I could go on some but it may be best to get another thread going as this is not the only thread where 'free will' has come up. While i fully understand it, i do have serious issues with it based in part on the above few examples.


Bless you Brother ....><>

 

[KingJ]

No, I never said man didn't have free will. I said your free will argument doesn't negate annihilation.

I give up. Accept me or die is....free will cough cough.

Please, do me a favor. Please remove that site from your bookmarks and never go there again. That site has more erroneous teaching than probably any I've seen. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. It was spoken to the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus was not reaching them about the afterlife, they didn't believe in an afterlife. He was speaking of the coming judgment they were going to face. The parable before this one starts the same way, "There was a certain rich man". The one before that starts, "There was a certain man". It's a parable. Additionally, we know that dead people can't take.

Got questions is one of the better Christian apologist sites.

Jesus also went to Hades for three days and spoke to those in prison. Was He speaking to corpses?

It is arbitrary. So is this one. And this one is demonstrably false. I'm pretty sure I can find a working brain that will disagree with this statement.

I am pretty sure you won't.

You made the claim, thus the onus is on you to prove your argument.

It has been proven. What you are asking for is ridiculous. You are not grasping / dealing with the scriptures I am providing.

This statement is self contradicting. "Alive in Death" is a logical contradiction. Something that alive cannot be dead at the same time and vice versa

Only if you ignore the facts and interpret death as annihilation. Fact is, God said to Adam ''the moment you eat this fruit you will surely die''. The moment after Adam ate the fruit he was removed from the garden and pretty much still alive.

There's no argument that God is good. The argument is that free will doesn't negate annihilationism. These passages don't say we are to judge God. Look at the context.

They do! The context is to '''KNOW'' the love of God. A spiritual man judgeth ALL matters with the exclusion of NONE 1 Cor 2:15.

You are clearly holding onto your belief in the face of logic and a weight scripture.