What to expect in Hell

[Brother-Paul]

OK, but how does this tie the two together?

Greetings brother

God has given everyone Free Will to accept the Free Gift of salvation and have eternal life OR

Reject His offer of Salvation and forgiveness of sins and go to eternal damnation

It is not God's choice, He wants everyone to be saved. God is Love.

But those who reject His offer of Salvation will pay the price for their sins.

God would not be a loving God unless He gives all the Free Will choice to accept Him or continue in sin.

Those who reject Him, those who choose to sin, have made their choice, He has very clearly laid down the rules for all mankind, how to be free from sin. The wages of sin is death. Eternal damnation.

 

[KingJ]

It is flawed. There's no connection between God being good and free will. If God never created anything, there would be no free will, however, God would still be good. Man's free will has no bearing on God.

This line is so flawed.

The statement ''If God never created anything'' is non sequitur...as.... God created a lot.

Now as a result of His creation. Humans and angels with high intelligence, He can only be proven as '''good'' if He gives true free will.

Unless you want to have an irrational argument, you do.

Please explain.

There's no counter argument to be made. Your argument is invalid. God is the ultimate standard. If the Bible says that God is good and that the dead are destroyed, then the word Good can incorporate the idea that the dead are destroyed. You're trying to impose you own definition of Good onto the Scriptures. You're not the ultimate authority.

What nonsense. God gave mankind the ability to know good and evil Gen 3:22.

Every person on this planet agrees that the proposal ''Accept me or die'' is wicked. It is a position that no working brain can prove as evidence of ''good''.

God can be wicked. God chooses to be good. In all His ways Psalm 145:17.

Now we come along with our human minds. Read about His omnipotence, omniscience and '''death''' then teach of a wicked God who can only be partial and a very warped idea of '''good''. This is miss-representation of God.

The word Good. As I said above, the Bible says that God is good. It also says that the dead will be no more. Therefore being good can incorporate the dead being no more.

There is a lot more for you to consider. Like for example the fact that nobody is good except for God Mark 10:18. Those that go on into life in heaven are never perfect. Perfectly 'good'. Many that go to the lake of fire barely missed the cut as many barely make the cut 1 Pet 4:18.

We that live on with God for eternity will always consider these days on earth. Always recall our acceptance of Jesus. If we look back and see that the choice before us was '''Accept or die''', our view of God would definitely be tainted. Lucky us. We were in the right religion. We said the magical words. We were chosen.

God can only be ''good'' if true free will exists. Now, all the evidence around us and in scripture points to it. Outside of course of your interpretation of a literal death, when there are so many examples and scriptures of death equating to mere excommunication and separation.

 

[KingJ]

We all have Free Will to choose, God will not push anything on us, He Loves the World, He wants all to be saved, He gives us a free will choice, that is the context, but he who rejects God's Free Gift of Salvation, He who chooses not to believe... is condemned already, that is their choice. Free Will, Life Eternal, or Death Eternal.

God is Love that is why He gives Free Will to accept Him or not. We choose our own destiny.

Not sure what you are trying to say. I think you are implying that those who reject God lose their free will?

Simply not true. The fact that they can live on in a space away from God is evidence of true free will. The fact that in that space they can do as they wish, is evidence of true free will. Even, we who have accepted Jesus never lose free will. In heaven, if I don't like you, I will move somewhere else. If God tells me to do something and I don't want to, I won't.

We never lose free will. The day we do is the day God becomes the devil. According to scripture that is an impossibility. Scripture says He is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. As such, we in heaven and those in hell always have free will.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Not sure what you are trying to say. I think you are implying that those who reject God lose their free will?

I will come back to this tomorrow brother

Peace be with you

 

[Butch5]

Greetings brother

God has given everyone Free Will to accept the Free Gift of salvation and have eternal life OR

Reject His offer of Salvation and forgiveness of sins and go to eternal damnation

It is not God's choice, He wants everyone to be saved. God is Love.

But those who reject His offer of Salvation will pay the price for their sins.

God would not be a loving God unless He gives all the Free Will choice to accept Him or continue in sin.

Those who reject Him, those who choose to sin, have made their choice, He has very clearly laid down the rules for all mankind, how to be free from sin. The wages of sin is death. Eternal damnation.

You're doing the same thing. You're defining good.

 

[Butch5]

This line is so flawed.

The statement ''If God never created anything'' is non sequitur...as.... God created a lot.

Now as a result of His creation. Humans and angels with high intelligence, He can only be proven as '''good'' if He gives true free will.

This statement tells me that you don't know what a non sequitur is. Google.

Please explain.

I did. Your argument is irrational.

What nonsense. God gave mankind the ability to know good and evil Gen 3:22.

Every person on this planet agrees that the proposal ''Accept me or die'' is wicked. It is a position that no working brain can prove as evidence of ''good''.

God can be wicked. God chooses to be good. In all His ways Psalm 145:17.

Now we come along with our human minds. Read about His omnipotence, omniscience and '''death''' then teach of a wicked God who can only be partial and a very warped idea of '''good''. This is miss-representation of God.



There is a lot more for you to consider. Like for example the fact that nobody is good except for God Mark 10:18. Those that go on into life in heaven are never perfect. Perfectly 'good'. Many that go to the lake of fire barely missed the cut as many barely make the cut 1 Pet 4:18.

We that live on with God for eternity will always consider these days on earth. Always recall our acceptance of Jesus. If we look back and see that the choice before us was '''Accept or die''', our view of God would definitely be tainted. Lucky us. We were in the right religion. We said the magical words. We were chosen.

God can only be ''good'' if true free will exists. Now, all the evidence around us and in scripture points to it. Outside of course of your interpretation of a literal death, when there are so many examples and scriptures of death equating to mere excommunication and separation.

Lets stay on point. You said that free will negates Annihilationism. Your argument is flawed. God told Israel that He had laid before them life and death. He said choose life. That is free will. They had the choice which they would choose. The Bible says that God is good. And, at the same time God told them to choose between life and death. Therefore, being good incorporates the concept of giving them the choice between life and death. This is really simple, I'm not sure what the problem is.

 

[KingJ]

This statement tells me that you don't know what a non sequitur is. Google.

Non sequitur = a conclusion or reply that doesn't follow logically from the previous statement.

Example: I heard about a pitbull attack. My neighbor owns pitbull, my life is in danger

Your line: I heard about free will with creation. If God created nothing, there is free will.

If not non sequitur, replace it with 'utterly unrelated'.

I did. Your argument is irrational.

An example of no true free will existing after someone says ''accept me or die'' is irrational? Google irony.

Lets stay on point. You said that free will negates Annihilationism. Your argument is flawed. God told Israel that He had laid before them life and death. He said choose life. That is free will. They had the choice which they would choose. The Bible says that God is good. And, at the same time God told them to choose between life and death. Therefore, being good incorporates the concept of giving them the choice between life and death. This is really simple, I'm not sure what the problem is.

Your understanding is terribly flawed.

Where are these dead Israelites who chose death? They are alive and well in Hades.

Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

Note the ''certainly die''. Now what happened to Adam after he ate the forbidden fruit?

Free will chooses life or death. There is free will in life and free will in death. Free will never ceases. When it does, God has become a wicked God. According to 1 John 1:5, that will never happen.

 

[Butch5]

Non sequitur = a conclusion or reply that doesn't follow logically from the previous statement.

Example: I heard about a pitbull attack. My neighbor owns pitbull, my life is in danger

Your line: I heard about free will with creation. If God created nothing, there is free will.

If not non sequitur, replace it with 'utterly unrelated'.

Thanks for the confirmation

An example of no true free will existing after someone says ''accept me or die'' is irrational? Google irony.

You set up and example where man has a choice and then claim there is no free choice. At this point I can just watch you take your own argument apart

Your understanding is terribly flawed.

Where are these dead Israelites who chose death? They are alive and well in Hades.

Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

Note the ''certainly die''. Now what happened to Adam after he ate the forbidden fruit?

Free will chooses life or death. There is free will in life and free will in death. Free will never ceases. When it does, God has become a wicked God. According to 1 John 1:5, that will never happen.

Those is Israelites are dead. I'm beginning to see now where the error is. You're presupposing Greek mythologies. The dead are not alive, that's why they are called the dead and not the living. The dead are dead. The Bible makes that abundantly clear. Dead people have no free will because they have no will. They have no will because they have no brain function. They can't determine anything.

Bottom line, you've still shown nothing to show that proves free will refutes the idea of annihilation.

 

[KingJ]

You set up and example where man has a choice and then claim there is no free choice. At this point I can just watch you take your own argument apart

Where did I claim there is no free choice?

Those is Israelites are dead. I'm beginning to see now where the error is. You're presupposing Greek mythologies. The dead are not alive, that's why they are called the dead and not the living. The dead are dead. The Bible makes that abundantly clear. Dead people have no free will because they have no will. They have no will because they have no brain function. They can't determine anything.

They are alive and in Hades.

Luke 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

With your belief you stop reading at verse 22. Verse 23 to verse 31 speaks to him having 'brain function'.

Bottom line, you've still shown nothing to show that proves free will refutes the idea of annihilation.

I have. I feel you are not chewing on what is being said.

God is good. No free will is bad. The words ''accept me or die'' (literally) are not evidence of free will. IE Not possible from a good God.

When God says to the Jews, or any wicked person ''Accept life over death'', it is correctly translated as ''accept being with me over not being with me''.

I see you are not dealing with my questions. God said to Adam ''you will SURELY die''. Adam was....simply.....removed from the garden. Clearly we have a word with two different meanings.

Every person on the planet with a 'functional brain' knows that the words ''Accept me or die (literally)'' are not evidence of love or free will. Why can we not hold God to it? He did give us the ability to know good and evil Gen 3:22.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Not sure what you are trying to say. I think you are implying that those who reject God lose their free will?

No problem brother, allow me to try put it another way, to clear the misunderstanding. I am NOT saying what you think I am saying.

Allow me to do this in stages so that we can focus in The Word on the points raised, from scripture, in each stage, then look at them all as a whole.

PART-1

Does God love ALL mankind.

We belong to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, OR, We belong to Sin, THE WORLD and the devil.

John 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

God Loves the World, every human that He created. Sinners who are lost and those we are saved and practice Righteousness.

God Loves the World, and doesn't want any to be LOST. Why? Because God is Love, in Him is no sin, evil or wickedness.

Do we agree brother, God is Love and there is no sin, evil, hate or wickedness in Him.

PART-2

Here we look at Free Will that God GIVES 'ALL'.

What is the Free Will that God gives ALL? - It is the Free Will to choose, whether we accept God's Free Gift of Salvation through Jesus OR to reject His Loving Offer and remain in Sin, the world and the devil.

Bearing in mind, as scripture makes clear, if God is not our Father the devil is.

John 8:42-47 (NIV2011)
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me.
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?
47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

But God Loves ALL, so in His tender Mercy and unfailing Love, he gives us all the same choice, the same option, and He gives us all our life, until our last breathe to turn from sin, evil, wickedness, the devil, and be saved. This is the Free Will offer He gives us all.

If we do not see this right, we will come up with all sorts of 'ideas' that not in the right context.

It is a FREE WILL choice, given to ALL, because God Loves us ALL, the choice is ours!

Now you may say this is not a Free Will choice, but it is brother. Because if God forced His love on us that would not be free will would it? God treats us all the same, through all generations, He gives us ALL a Free Will choice to accept Him. To come to Him through Jesus, to accept the Cross and Jesus shedding His blood for OUR SINS. God showed His Love, through Jesus, that whilst we were/are sinners, Christ dies for the Sins 'of the whole world'. That is God's Love in action.

John 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

PART-3

Here we have the confirmation, here we have the conclusion, note, following on from John 3:16-17, same scripture to keep it all in context.

John 3:18-21 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

God is LOVE, in Him is no sin, no hate, no wickedness, no evil, God is LOVE.

God does not want anyone to be lost, He wants ALL to be saved, that demonstrates His love for the world.

So He gives us ALL, the Free Will choice, the Free Gift of Salvation, the offer of eternal life is available to ALL.

But there are some in the world who prefer and practice evil, wickedness, killing, hate, they belong to the devil. But God in His LOVE gives them all their life to turn from the wickedness, right up to the last breath on earth, ALL have the same Free Will choice, He doesn't say you have killed, you have stolen, you have coveted, you have committed adultery, etc, etc. No He loves ALL and gives ALL the same Free Will choice. God accepts the vilest of sinners, we repent, accept Jesus as their Saviour and become saved.

Why?

Because God is LOVE brother, there is no evil of any kind in Him, He treats ALL the same, offers ALL the same Free Will choice.

Because God is Love.

People you have mentioned are not saying or insinuating God is wicked, God is Love. Understanding God's Free Will gift for ALL mankind and how it is intended is key I believe.

I do hope and pray you can see this clearer, maybe I have not explained it sufficiently in the past, if that is the case I apologise.

Do you agree with what I have put, not my words brother, they are taken from scripture?

Peace be with you

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

may i come in from outside the box?

The notion of man having free will is very appealing to man and making God the author of free will tends to help man to agree with himself about the merits he has formulated regarding free will.

May i suggest that you consider temptation {NOT consider being tempted!!!} and place that in the equation?

Chew it over, if you will


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

Where did I claim there is no free choice?

Just read what you wrote in this post. "The words ''accept me or die'' (literally) are not evidence of free will." There's a choice there. That's a free will choice.

They are alive and in Hades.

Luke 16:22-23 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

With your belief you stop reading at verse 22. Verse 23 to verse 31 speaks to him having 'brain function'.

That's a parable. They are not really alive. Notice what it says, they died. It's also spoken to the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus said He only speaks to them in parables so that seeing they might see and not understand and hearing they might hear and not understand. The whole point of speaking to them in parables was to give them some truth that they didn't comprehend. If the parable is taken literally, the would understand it. They didn't. The reason they didn't is because it's not literal.

I have. I feel you are not chewing on what is being said.

God is good. No free will is bad. The words ''accept me or die'' (literally) are not evidence of free will. IE Not possible from a good God.

When God says to the Jews, or any wicked person ''Accept life over death'', it is correctly translated as ''accept being with me over not being with me''.

I see you are not dealing with my questions. God said to Adam ''you will SURELY die''. Adam was....simply.....removed from the garden. Clearly we have a word with two different meanings.

Every person on the planet with a 'functional brain' knows that the words ''Accept me or die (literally)'' are not evidence of love or free will. Why can we not hold God to it? He did give us the ability to know good and evil Gen 3:22.

Here's the problem, you said, "God is good. No free will is bad. The words ''accept me or die'' (literally) are not evidence of free will. IE Not possible from a good God." This is simply an arbitrary statement. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. This is the basis of you argument, the premise, make an argument from Scripture that proves this is true.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings all,

may i come in from outside the box?

The notion of man having free will is very appealing to man and making God the author of free will tends to help man to agree with himself about the merits he has formulated regarding free will.

May i suggest that you consider temptation {NOT consider being tempted!!!} and place that in the equation?

Chew it over, if you will


Bless you ....><>

Good point brother, but I feel God's Free Will choice is given in accordance with scripture that relates to Him.

As you say if we consider Free Will in earthly terms we miss the point.

I do believe God's Free Will, is God's choice, He could give us a Free will choice, He could take it away. But He chose to give all the world, that is every soul in the world, the same Free Will choice.

I have detailed this in [HASH=551]#post[/HASH] 310, from God's prospective. Because God is Love, because God doesn't want any to be lost, He gives ALL the same Free Will choice, which is showing His Love for the world, all mankind, From God's prospective, He is offering His Love to ALL, but because He is a loving God, He does not force His love on us, He gives us all chance to repent, turn away from wickedness and come to Him through Jesus.

The key point here, is have you have suggested, it relates to SIN and Repentance. God hates Sin, God is Love, He offers us a path, He offer us a doorway, He offers us a better way, a Free Will choice to be Free from Sin.

Bless you

 

[KingJ]

Just read what you wrote in this post. "The words ''accept me or die'' (literally) are not evidence of free will." There's a choice there. That's a free will choice.

You said 'no' free will choice.

That's a parable. They are not really alive. Notice what it says, they died. It's also spoken to the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus said He only speaks to them in parables so that seeing they might see and not understand and hearing they might hear and not understand. The whole point of speaking to them in parables was to give them some truth that they didn't comprehend. If the parable is taken literally, the would understand it. They didn't. The reason they didn't is because it's not literal.

It is not a parable Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or an account of events that actually occurred? | GotQuestions.org.

Here's the problem, you said, "God is good. No free will is bad. The words ''accept me or die'' (literally) are not evidence of free will. IE Not possible from a good God." This is simply an arbitrary statement. Just because you say it, doesn't make it so. This is the basis of you argument, the premise,.

It is not an arbitrary statement. It is supported by the fact that every person with a working brain knows they don't enter a relationship with anyone who says that.

If God was partial and said He was good, we would know one has to be false. They are mutually exclusive terms.

make an argument from Scripture that proves this is true

Make an argument that proves a wicked act is good or vice versa? How about the fact that in scripture death has never resulted in pure death? We can draw a logical line from scriptures that teach He is good to those that teach of His treatment of His enemy / how He wants us to love our enemy.

Adam and Angels included, entered death and were alive in death. Angels still roam freely....in.....death. His ''ultimate'' enemy, still roams freely.

When we examine scripture, we grasp that God is good from His actions. His decisions. God is an open book with us. God wants us to know Him. That is why there are so many scriptures to us explaining who He is.

God wants us to judge Him.

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height of God's love;

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together.

1 Cor 2:15 the spiritual man judges all things.

 

[Dave M]

what to expect in hell is described in detail by Jesus in the parable

23 In Hades, where he was in torment

24 dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
(John 5:39-47)

19 Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor.

20 And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.d And the rich man also died and was buried

. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

24 So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

25 But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer

. 26 And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

27 ‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

29 But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

30 ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Butch5]

You said 'no' free will choice.

No, I never said man didn't have free will. I said your free will argument doesn't negate annihilation.

It is not a parable Is Luke 16:19-31 a parable or an account of events that actually occurred? | GotQuestions.org.

Please, do me a favor. Please remove that site from your bookmarks and never go there again. That site has more erroneous teaching than probably any I've seen. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable. It was spoken to the Scribes and Pharisees. Jesus was not reaching them about the afterlife, they didn't believe in an afterlife. He was speaking of the coming judgment they were going to face. The parable before this one starts the same way, "There was a certain rich man". The one before that starts, "There was a certain man". It's a parable. Additionally, we know that dead people can't take.

It is not an arbitrary statement. It is supported by the fact that every person with a working brain knows they don't enter a relationship with anyone who says that.

If God was partial and said He was good, we would know one has to be false. They are mutually exclusive terms.

It is arbitrary. So is this one. And this one is demonstrably false. I'm pretty sure I can find a working brain that will disagree with this statement.

Make an argument that proves a wicked act is good or vice versa? How about the fact that in scripture death has never resulted in pure death? We can draw a logical line from scriptures that teach He is good to those that teach of His treatment of His enemy / how He wants us to love our enemy.

You made the claim, thus the onus is on you to prove your argument.

Adam and Angels included, entered death and were alive in death. Angels still roam freely....in.....death. His ''ultimate'' enemy, still roams freely.['quote]

This statement is self contradicting. "Alive in Death" is a logical contradiction. Something that alive cannot be dead at the same time and vice versa

When we examine scripture, we grasp that God is good from His actions. His decisions. God is an open book with us. God wants us to know Him. That is why there are so many scriptures to us explaining who He is.

God wants us to judge Him.

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height of God's love;

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together.

1 Cor 2:15 the spiritual man judges all things.

There's no argument that God is good. The argument is that free will doesn't negate annihilationism. These passages don't say we are to judge God. Look at the context.

 

[Butch5]

what to expect in hell is described in detail by Jesus in the parable

23 In Hades, where he was in torment

24 dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
(John 5:39-47)

19 Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor.

20 And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores

21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.d And the rich man also died and was buried

. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

24 So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

25 But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer

. 26 And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

27 ‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

29 But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

30 ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

This passage is not about an afterlife. Tell me, where have you ever seen dead people speak? If this is supposed to be ghosts in some place deep in the earth why do they have body parts? Did they take their bodies with them? Why didn't their bodies return to dust as the Scriptures say? Come on man, let's use reason.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings all,

may i come in from outside the box?

The notion of man having free will is very appealing to man and making God the author of free will tends to help man to agree with himself about the merits he has formulated regarding free will.

May i suggest that you consider temptation {NOT consider being tempted!!!} and place that in the equation?

Chew it over, if you will


Bless you ....><>

I'm surprised that this is even an issue. While it's clear in the Scriptures, the evidence in the Early Church is overwhelming.

 

[Dave M]

This passage is not about an afterlife

perhaps you can enlighten us then on what you think this story is about?

 

[Butch5]

perhaps you can enlighten us then on what you think this story is about?

I addressed this passage in the other thread, "Dismiss Hell and You Dismiss Jesus". It's in post 39