What to expect in Hell

[Butch5]

Some better translations.

Psa 143:4;
(GNB) When they die, they return to the dust; on that day all their plans come to an end.
(GW) When they breathe their last breath, they return to the ground. On that day their plans come to an end.
(MSG) Mere humans don't have what it takes; when they die, their projects die with them.
(NIrV) When they die, they return to the ground. On that very day their plans are bound to fail.
(NIV) When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.
(NLT) When they breathe their last, they return to the earth, and all their plans die with them.

Ecc 9:6;
(ASV) As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun.
(ESV) Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
(GNB) Their loves, their hates, their passions, all died with them. They will never again take part in anything that happens in this world.
(GW) Their love, their hate, and their passions have already vanished. They will never again take part in anything that happens under the sun.
(MSG) Their loves, their hates, yes, even their dreams, are long gone. There's not a trace of them left in the affairs of this earth.
(NAS77) Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
(NASB) Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.

Isa 38:18;
(ASV) For Sheol cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee: They that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
(ESV) For Sheol does not thank you; death does not praise you; those who go down to the pit do not hope for your faithfulness.
(GNB) No one in the world of the dead can praise you; The dead cannot trust in your faithfulness.
(GW) Sheol doesn't thank you! Death doesn't praise you! Those who go down to the pit cannot expect you to be faithful.
(NAS77) "For Sheol cannot thank Thee, Death cannot praise Thee; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Thy faithfulness.
(NASB) "For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.

None of these verses say people can't think or remember.

Some better translations? Why are they better? Is it because they better fit what you believe? Are you familiar with the term "Translator Bias"? You see, before people translate the Scriptures they already have a belief system. If you have a Catholic and a Protestant both translate the Scriptures you'll see different wording used. That's because people translate the Scriptures based on what they believe is right. After all, one wouldn't translate them in a way they think is wrong. So, if a person believes that the dead are alive and they see the passage from Psalms 146:4 that says, 'their thoughts perish' they have a problem. They don't believe that that could be the correct reading because they don't believe that the thoughts of the dead perish. So, they to find another way to translate it. But that's not the correct way to do it. The correct way is to see how the word is used in Scripture. If you do a word study on the Hebrew, or Greek equivalent, word estonah you'll find that it's translated thoughts the majority of the time. It's translated doubt a time or two, which again goes to thoughts. And this is in the versions you listed above, However, It's only translated "plans" in this one passage where it creates problems for the translators theology. So, in virtually, every other occurrence of the word it's translated thoughts or doubt, yet in the one passage that would go against the translators theology it's translated plans, I think this is surely a case of translator bias. The correct reading is thoughts.

Translator bias is one of the reasons I don't use English translations to do studies. I use the Greek or Hebrew words. You'd probably be surprised is you saw how many different words translators sometimes use to translate a single Greek or Hebrew word.

 

[Butch5]

I give up. Accept me or die is....free will cough cough.

How can you not see the choice there?

Got questions is one of the better Christian apologist sites.

It's not. In all seriousness, for the sake of learning sound doctrine, please don't go to that site for information.

Jesus also went to Hades for three days and spoke to those in prison. Was He speaking to corpses?

Hades is the grave. The spirits in prison that He made the proclamation to were not dead people they were demons and He made that proclamation after He rose from the dead. If you look at the word order in 1 Peter you'll see that the it says He was put to death, raised, and then went and made the proclamation.

I am pretty sure you won't.

I'm one so there's at least one.

It has been proven. What you are asking for is ridiculous. You are not grasping / dealing with the scriptures I am providing.

No, you're using circular reasoning and your own definition of words

Only if you ignore the facts and interpret death as annihilation. Fact is, God said to Adam ''the moment you eat this fruit you will surely die''. The moment after Adam ate the fruit he was removed from the garden and pretty much still alive.

Not so. Anyone reading this thread can go to a cemetery and start talking to the dead people. I'll bet you not a single one will get a response. The dead are dead, that's why they're called the dead and not the living.

No, God didn't say the moment Adam ate he would die. He said, the day Adam at he would die. He did. David said,

4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night. (Ps. 90:4 NKJ)

Peter said,

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 NKJ)

Adam lived 930. That's just short of one day with the Lord. This is the history understanding of the passage from both the Jews and the early Christians.

They do! The context is to '''KNOW'' the love of God. A spiritual man judgeth ALL matters with the exclusion of NONE 1 Cor 2:15.

You are clearly holding onto your belief in the face of logic and a weight scripture.

Your opinions aren't logic or Scripture. You need facts. You need Scripture that states what you claim, not passages from which your "Infer" things.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings and thank you Brother-Paul,

may i try again?
(not that i tried very hard last time!)

For in Him we live, and move, and have our being;

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.
Acts 17:30-31

It may be that there is a difference between 'free will' and choosing?

There was but one 'choice' until temptation came to choose another 'choice'.
Who planted the idea of using 'free will' into Eve's thoughts?

[some may not appreciate this next bit] Eve was, to quote Adam, "
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. "
Genesis 2:23

hence,


According to the Bible, believers are led by, filled with and walk by, the Spirit. No longer slaves to the flesh.

According to Jesus
For whosoever shall do the will of My Father which is in heaven, the same is My brother, and sister, and mother.
Matthew 12:50

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 6:38

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:20

The more i think about it, Brother, the more i see the whole concept of 'free will', as it is often and mostly propagated, as a soft and fluffy representation of our actual need to obey a God Who states His will. It gives the idea that there is no real pressing moment in it all but that we can choose, if we want to. What leads from there is the sneaky notion of pride, given that we chose the best choice so therefore we get the prize [clever us!]

It is useful to start at Genesis, though.

However, i realize that this whole 'free will' subject is not specifically in line with this thread and that perhaps a new one might be in order?

Before i go, sometimes [or often] we hear [or say] that we have a decision to make regarding one thing or another.
Now, add to this, that the 'we' here is Believers and that it may involve seeking or doing God's will. {no doubt you understand me?}
My take is, presently, that IF God had a decision for us, so to speak, which He doesn't usually [because He tells us what to do or what He is wanting us to do - as those who are now filled with and by His Spirit, abiding in Him no longer living for themselves} that IF God had a direction for us to take, He would present it to us and there would be no confusion.... until.... we add flesh to it, by reasoning or doubting or plain rebellion. all directed to our thoughts by the enemy, NOT God. It is in this case, nothing to do with free will but rather the option of using the false 'free will' as a way to avoid doing all that is required of us, not by us but by God, Who is to be obeyed because He is. {everyone planet wide has no problems obeying the other things He has set in place, like breathing, eating drinking etc etc etc}

Remember when John fell as if one dead? Free will? No.
The Lord is not some fluffy god who gives free will to everyone. {do i hear a few eeeeks!!!? a tearing of the clothes?} He tells us and we either listen to Him or the temptation to rebel and disobey (not listen)
Do we forget Who we are talking about? Methinks, often we do.

I could go on some but it may be best to get another thread going as this is not the only thread where 'free will' has come up. While i fully understand it, i do have serious issues with it based in part on the above few examples.


Bless you Brother ....><>

Greeting brother

Very well put, my temptation [wrong word] is to reply, but then the conversation rolls on.....
So I am thinking, yes you are right, it would be better in a new thread.
Go for it brother, I am first... after you.
:grin:

 

[Brother-Paul]

I appreciate your post was for another brother but hope you don't mind me adding a penneth/cent here.

Some better translations? Why are they better? Is it because they better fit what you believe? Are you familiar with the term "Translator Bias"? You see, before people translate the Scriptures they already have a belief system. If you have a Catholic and a Protestant both translate the Scriptures you'll see different wording used. That's because people translate the Scriptures based on what they believe is right. After all, one wouldn't translate them in a way they think is wrong.

So true brother

The correct way is to see how the word is used in Scripture. If you do a word study on the Hebrew, or Greek equivalent.

I totally agree my friend, it takes time but it is more accurate. So many times we see posts trying to explain things in earthly comparisons, we must look up the true meaning, then consider in context. That said, I think we all take shortcuts at times, based on what we know, and as you say, influenced by our previous views of the meaning.

So many read scripture about Love, but don't look up the type of love from the Greek/Hebrew. You probably know how many but I think there are seven different types of love mentioned in The Word. The western world used one word love and use it to cover everything from agape divine love to worldly lust, love of a partner, love of children, love of animals/pet, love of sun, love holidays, love of money, etc, etc.

Translator bias is one of the reasons I don't use English translations to do studies. I use the Greek or Hebrew words. You'd probably be surprised is you saw how many different words translators sometimes use to translate a single Greek or Hebrew word.

Although I use them a lot, I am sure I would be surprised, every time I look words up in the Greek or Hebrew my eyes are opened to the Truth in The Word.

We have a very sloppy language in the western world.

Bless you

 

[KingJ]

How can you not see the choice there?

Just go out your front door and ask someone to marry your daughter or die and you will see why.

Hades is the grave. The spirits in prison that He made the proclamation to were not dead people they were demons and He made that proclamation after He rose from the dead. If you look at the word order in 1 Peter you'll see that the it says He was put to death, raised, and then went and made the proclamation.

Jesus preached to demons? Demons who God removed from heaven?

Heb 2:16 For it is clear that he did not come to help angels. No, he came to help Abraham’s descendants.

No, you're using circular reasoning and your own definition of words

Circular reasoning? If a guy wanted to marry your daughter and said '''I am a very good man''. You then see him at college campus selling drugs. Him being a liar / evildoer is a fact. There is no circular reasoning.

Not so. Anyone reading this thread can go to a cemetery and start talking to the dead people. I'll bet you not a single one will get a response. The dead are dead, that's why they're called the dead and not the living.

Did Jesus die?

No, God didn't say the moment Adam ate he would die. He said, the day Adam at he would die. He did. David said,

4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night. (Ps. 90:4 NKJ)

Peter said,

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 NKJ)

Adam lived 930. That's just short of one day with the Lord. This is the history understanding of the passage from both the Jews and the early Christians.

How do you explain the white throne judgement?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This verse is rather crystal clear that all who are ''dead'' are brought before God for the white throne judgement. I guess the dead are not that dead. I guess Adam has extended God's day by 6-7 more days.

Your opinions aren't logic or Scripture. You need facts. You need Scripture that states what you claim, not passages from which your "Infer" things.

You are completely out of line to say its my opinion. It is not my opinion. We are disagreeing on wording. Neither of us are guilty of ''opinions''. We are both trying to stick to scripture and verse.

Free will is a logical argument from scriptures like Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways, 1 John 1:5 God is light with no darkness in Him at all, Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good. We are the bride of Christ 2 Cor 11:2, Eph 5:27. All scriptures where we see God / Jesus and the devil / demons interact with each other.

Since we are referred to as His bride we can match it to a close relationship we have with a spouse. Fact, not opinion.
Only wicked people force brides to marry grooms. The words ''accept me or die'' are the words of a wicked person. Fact, not opinion.

 

[Butch5]

I appreciate your post was for another brother but hope you don't mind me adding a penneth/cent here.




So true brother




I totally agree my friend, it takes time but it is more accurate. So many times we see posts trying to explain things in earthly comparisons, we must look up the true meaning, then consider in context. That said, I think we all take shortcuts at times, based on what we know, and as you say, influenced by our previous views of the meaning.

So many read scripture about Love, but don't look up the type of love from the Greek/Hebrew. You probably know how many but I think there are seven different types of love mentioned in The Word. The western world used one word love and use it to cover everything from agape divine love to worldly lust, love of a partner, love of children, love of animals/pet, love of sun, love holidays, love of money, etc, etc.




Although I use them a lot, I am sure I would be surprised, every time I look words up in the Greek or Hebrew my eyes are opened to the Truth in The Word.

We have a very sloppy language in the western world.

Bless you

I agree with you here. We definitely have a sloppy language. I think the translation can sloppy too. I don't think it's intentional, but I think translators often cause confusion by the way they translate. Take the word the "spirit" for instance. There are two Hebrew words, Neshamah and Ruach, and one Greek word, "Pneuma", that are translated spirit. All three of these words literally mean, wind. They're often translated wind or breath. The English word "spirit" is a figurative usage of these words. The problem is that in our western culture when people think of the word spirit, they think of some kind of disembodied consciousness, like a ghost. Those Hebrew and Greek words don't have that meaning at all. There is nothing in definition of these words that means a disembodied consciousness. But, because English readers already have the preconception that a spirit is a disembodied consciousness they import that idea into the text of the Bible when they see the word spirit. This causes great confusion. The words literally mean wind. If the translators would simply translate them as wind everywhere in the Bible and let the reader determine if the words are being used figuratively or not there would likely be a lot less confusion. Because, I don't think anyone reading the word wind in the Bible would think of a ghost or a disembodied consciousness. This is another reason to read a more literal translation. By using several different English words for the Greek or Hebrew words the translators are imposing their beliefs into the text.

Another example their theology driving the interpretation would be in the dictionaries or lexicons. Take the word aion, in most lexicons one of the definitions of aion is eternal. The English word "eternal" means unending. The word aion is used quite often in Scripture of things that end. Logic dictates that a thing and it's opposite cannot both be true at the same time. So, the word "aion" cannot mean eternal and not eternal, or finite. Yet if you look in the English translations this word is translated forever and eternal. This causes so much confusion. Just look at the thread we're in about Hell. People post passages about eternal punishment, but the word aion cannot mean eternal. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion and the aion to come. The best English translation of the word aion is age. Jesus spoke of this age and the age to come. People will say, well it's used of eternal life and that life doesn't end, so it must mean eternal. That's actually circular reasoning a logical fallacy. "Young's Literal Translation" is the most accurate English translation when it comes to translating this word.

We have issues like this and well meaning Christian don't know about them. They read the Scriptures thinking everything is accurate. We have that same issue with word hell. The KJV translates three different places as hell. So, when Christians read hell in the KJV and other versions, they don't know if the passage is talking about Gehenna, Hades, or Tartarus. then when you add the paraphrased translations you get more confusion. It just gets out of hand and the average Christian who doesn't do serious word studies from the original languages doesn't even realize this. He/she thinks they're getting an accurate copy of God's word. That can be seen from the way people post the passages of Scripture. It's really hard to discuss issues with people when they don't know this stuff because they believe what they are posting is accurate. I really think our English translators should set aside what they believe and translate the text as literal as possible. This would go a long way in helping the English reading Christians sort things out.

 

[Butch5]

Just go out your front door and ask someone to marry your daughter or die and you will see why.

Just because you don't like the choices doesn't mean they are there.

Jesus preached to demons? Demons who God removed from heaven?

Heb 2:16 For it is clear that he did not come to help angels. No, he came to help Abraham’s descendants.

Agreed. However, it was not in Hades. It was after His resurrection.

Circular reasoning? If a guy wanted to marry your daughter and said '''I am a very good man''. You then see him at college campus selling drugs. Him being a liar / evildoer is a fact. There is no circular reasoning.

This doesn't change your last statement.

Did Jesus die?

He did, but He's not dead. He was resurrected. Everyone else who died is still dead. That's why they're called the dead.

How do you explain the white throne judgement?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

This verse is rather crystal clear that all who are ''dead'' are brought before God for the white throne judgement. I guess the dead are not that dead. I guess Adam has extended God's day by 6-7 more days.

It's easily explained. The dead will be resurrected.

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

You are completely out of line to say its my opinion. It is not my opinion. We are disagreeing on wording. Neither of us are guilty of ''opinions''. We are both trying to stick to scripture and verse.

Free will is a logical argument from scriptures like Psalm 145:17 God is righteous in all His ways, 1 John 1:5 God is light with no darkness in Him at all, Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good. We are the bride of Christ 2 Cor 11:2, Eph 5:27. All scriptures where we see God / Jesus and the devil / demons interact with each other.

Since we are referred to as His bride we can match it to a close relationship we have with a spouse. Fact, not opinion.
Only wicked people force brides to marry grooms. The words ''accept me or die'' are the words of a wicked person. Fact, not opinion.

I don't know how you feel I'm out of line. Unless a passages state categorically what you claim, you're drawing an inference which is an opinion. The argument I was referring to was circular. I'm not sure why you're pointing out the free will argument. I told you I don't disagree with free will. What I disagree with is your initial argument that free will negates annihilation. But again, this statement is you opinion.

"The words ''accept me or die'' are the words of a wicked person. Fact, not opinion." If someone falls off of a ship and another throws a rope and says accept the rope or die, is that an wicked person? I don't think anyone would say they are.

I think I've stumbled on the problem here. You're statement "accept me or die" seems to me, correct me if I'm wrong, to indicate that you believe that God is saying if people don't accept Him He's going to kill them. Is that correct? If so, I think you have misunderstood. Man is destined to die, not God's hand, but by man's. God is throwing man a rope.

 

[KingJ]

Agreed. However, it was not in Hades. It was after His resurrection.

Fact remains that Heb 2:16 says salvation is not for the demons.

1 Pet 3:18-20 being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah. These are not fallen angels.

Fallen angels would not have rebelled from heaven and followed Lucifer if the punishment was annihilation. They would have stuck it out and groaned about a cruel and merciless God. Note how in Matt 8:29 the fallen angels ask Jesus if He has come to '''torment'' them before their time. Not kill them.

Matt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time.

If so, I think you have misunderstood. Man is destined to die, not God's hand, but by man's. God is throwing man a rope.

This is half the truth. The whole truth is that God wants a relationship with mankind. We are not some experiment in which God kills those who hate Him.

It is the relationship aspect that you are not grasping.

 

[KingJ]

He did, but He's not dead. He was resurrected. Everyone else who died is still dead. That's why they're called the dead.

Jesus's flesh died. Not His spirit 1 Pet 3:18 was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

A human is body, soul and spirit 1 Thess 5:23.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I agree with you here. We definitely have a sloppy language. I think the translation can sloppy too. I don't think it's intentional, but I think translators often cause confusion by the way they translate. Take the word the "spirit" for instance. There are two Hebrew words, Neshamah and Ruach, and one Greek word, "Pneuma", that are translated spirit. All three of these words literally mean, wind. They're often translated wind or breath. The English word "spirit" is a figurative usage of these words. The problem is that in our western culture when people think of the word spirit, they think of some kind of disembodied consciousness, like a ghost. Those Hebrew and Greek words don't have that meaning at all. There is nothing in definition of these words that means a disembodied consciousness. But, because English readers already have the preconception that a spirit is a disembodied consciousness they import that idea into the text of the Bible when they see the word spirit. This causes great confusion. The words literally mean wind. If the translators would simply translate them as wind everywhere in the Bible and let the reader determine if the words are being used figuratively or not there would likely be a lot less confusion. Because, I don't think anyone reading the word wind in the Bible would think of a ghost or a disembodied consciousness. This is another reason to read a more literal translation. By using several different English words for the Greek or Hebrew words the translators are imposing their beliefs into the text.

Another example their theology driving the interpretation would be in the dictionaries or lexicons. Take the word aion, in most lexicons one of the definitions of aion is eternal. The English word "eternal" means unending. The word aion is used quite often in Scripture of things that end. Logic dictates that a thing and it's opposite cannot both be true at the same time. So, the word "aion" cannot mean eternal and not eternal, or finite. Yet if you look in the English translations this word is translated forever and eternal. This causes so much confusion. Just look at the thread we're in about Hell. People post passages about eternal punishment, but the word aion cannot mean eternal. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion and the aion to come. The best English translation of the word aion is age. Jesus spoke of this age and the age to come. People will say, well it's used of eternal life and that life doesn't end, so it must mean eternal. That's actually circular reasoning a logical fallacy. "Young's Literal Translation" is the most accurate English translation when it comes to translating this word.

We have issues like this and well meaning Christian don't know about them. They read the Scriptures thinking everything is accurate. We have that same issue with word hell. The KJV translates three different places as hell. So, when Christians read hell in the KJV and other versions, they don't know if the passage is talking about Gehenna, Hades, or Tartarus. then when you add the paraphrased translations you get more confusion. It just gets out of hand and the average Christian who doesn't do serious word studies from the original languages doesn't even realize this. He/she thinks they're getting an accurate copy of God's word. That can be seen from the way people post the passages of Scripture. It's really hard to discuss issues with people when they don't know this stuff because they believe what they are posting is accurate. I really think our English translators should set aside what they believe and translate the text as literal as possible. This would go a long way in helping the English reading Christians sort things out.

Greetings brother

I have tended to look at Greek and Hebrew meaning as I come to it, e.g. based on what I am reading or studying at the time, I can see you have been doing so for some time, a lot longer than I have for sure. I feel when you read the original meaning of a word, that it is like a tree coming into fruit, a plant starting to flower and blossom. You certainly have me thinking now of looking at specific words and their Greek/Hebrew meaning. Strange as it may seem to me now, I have not looked at the true meaning of the word Spirit, but I do fully understand what you say about the western world understanding. In Charles Haddon Spurgeon's day it was always Holy Ghost, this over time changed to Holy Spirit which is more common use today.

But there is a similar misunderstanding over the Bible, many think there are dozens of Bibles, some even more, but there is only one Bible as we know brother, One Bible many translations, and the translations can be so misleading, falling into two categories, the paraphrased translations and the Expounded Word translations. The latter I prefer as I feel the more paraphrased they are the more worldly they become and end up farther from the Truth.

Bless you brother

 

[Butch5]

Fact remains that Heb 2:16 says salvation is not for the demons.

1 Pet 3:18-20 being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah. These are not fallen angels.

Fallen angels would not have rebelled from heaven and followed Lucifer if the punishment was annihilation. They would have stuck it out and groaned about a cruel and merciless God. Note how in Matt 8:29 the fallen angels ask Jesus if He has come to '''torment'' them before their time. Not kill them.

Matt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time.

This has nothing to do with the subject.

This is half the truth. The whole truth is that God wants a relationship with mankind. We are not some experiment in which God kills those who hate Him.

It is the relationship aspect that you are not grasping.

The point is that if someone is going to die and another throws them a rope, that is not a wicked act. Your scenario, "marry me or die" is only evil if the one saying marry me is going to kill the other person

 

[Butch5]

Jesus's flesh died. Not His spirit 1 Pet 3:18 was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

A human is body, soul and spirit 1 Thess 5:23.

Read that passage closely, he was put to death and made alive.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Pet. 3:18 KJV)

He died and was raised.

The idea that ones's flesh dies, but yet somehow they didn't die is not a Biblical concept. It's from Greek philosophy. Man is a flesh being that has in him the breath or spirit of God. It is this breath or spirit that gives man life, and that animates him. When a man dies that breath or spirit of God returns to Him and the man returns to the dust. When the John wrote his first epistle he said,

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: (1 Jn. 4:2 KJV)

The word translated "come" is in the Greek Perfect tense. The perfect tense indicates a past completed action whose results continue to the present. That means that when John wrote his epistle some 60 years after the resurrection Jesus was still in the flesh.

 

[Butch5]

Greetings brother

I have tended to look at Greek and Hebrew meaning as I come to it, e.g. based on what I am reading or studying at the time, I can see you have been doing so for some time, a lot longer than I have for sure. I feel when you read the original meaning of a word, that it is like a tree coming into fruit, a plant starting to flower and blossom. You certainly have me thinking now of looking at specific words and their Greek/Hebrew meaning. Strange as it may seem to me now, I have not looked at the true meaning of the word Spirit, but I do fully understand what you say about the western world understanding. In Charles Haddon Spurgeon's day it was always Holy Ghost, this over time changed to Holy Spirit which is more common use today.

But there is a similar misunderstanding over the Bible, many think there are dozens of Bibles, some even more, but there is only one Bible as we know brother, One Bible many translations, and the translations can be so misleading, falling into two categories, the paraphrased translations and the Expounded Word translations. The latter I prefer as I feel the more paraphrased they are the more worldly they become and end up farther from the Truth.

Bless you brother

Hi Brother Paul,

Yeah, I would encourage everyone to do word studies. They're a lot easier now that we have computers. All it takes is getting the Strong's number for the word you're looking at and doing a search in the Scriptures for that number. It'll list all the places that the word appears. Then all one has to do is read the passages in context to see what the word means in that context. It'll also show how many different ways that translator translate a single Greek word. Another word that is often misunderstood in the Scriptures is the word soul. The Hebrew word is Nephesh and the Greek word is Psuche. If you ask Christians what the soul is you'll get all kinds of different answers. However, if you follow the Greek and Hebrew words through the Scriptures to see how they are used it becomes clear that a soul is a living being. The word is used in two ways. It's used concretely as a living being and abstractly of life. If you ask Christians what the word means, some will say it's one of the three parts of a man, some will says it's the will or emotions, and so on. Part of the reason for this is because translators use a bunch of different words to translate Nephesh and Psuche. If they would just translate it soul everywhere it would be much more clear to the English reader what a soul is.

It's sad to me that it's like this because so many well meaning Christians don't know about this and it causes them much confusion even though they may not be aware of it. I don't think the translators do it intentionally. I think they just translate the Scripture the way they understand them and I think they try to make it easier for the reader to understand. However, in the process they may be doing more harm.

I would encourage people to look at Young's Literal Translation. It's an older translation but it very literal. I probably wouldn't use it for daily reading as it's a bit awkward in places because it is literal, but it gives one a pretty accurate reading of the original texts.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I have and use Strongs and the Youngs Literal Translation, I agree with what you say.

I also like to refer to Complete Jewish Bible and New Jerusalem Bible (translations)

They can all be very helpful.

Bless you brother

 

[Butch5]

Jesus's flesh died. Not His spirit 1 Pet 3:18 was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

A human is body, soul and spirit 1 Thess 5:23.

This isn't accurate. A human consists of the dust, or elements of the earth.


KJV Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1

Man consists of the elements of the earth. The passage goes on to say that God breathed the breath, or spirit, of life into the man. This breath, or spirit, is not man. It's a part of God. God breathes this into man. When that happened the man became a living soul. From this passage we can see that a soul consists of the man, or body, and the breath or spirit of life from God. When the body and the breath or spirit of life from God combine, they together become something else, a living soul. The soul isn't a part of man, it is the whole of man, a living being. The spirit in man isn't man, it belongs to God and returns to Him when the man dies. Apart from the body or the breath, there is no man.

 

[Butch5]

I have and use Strongs and the Youngs Literal Translation, I agree with what you say.

I also like to refer to Complete Jewish Bible and New Jerusalem Bible (translations)

They can all be very helpful.

Bless you brother

Yes, they are very helpful also. I really like having a Jewish perspective on the Bible. I think it's really, really, really, important that we have that. Today Christian teaching for the most part is devoid of a connection to Israel. However, Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews". Paul said,

YLT Romans 3:30 yes, also of nations; since one is God who shall declare righteous the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through the faith. (Rom. 3:30 YLT)

I would venture to say that one cannot be saved unless they are a Jew. I can see people's hair standing up on the back of their necks as I write this, so,let me explain. Paul said, in Romans 11, that the believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel. In Galatians he said, 'If you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise'. So, in this sense we as believers have become Jews or Israelite and as such are heirs of the promise. Paul also says this in Ephesians.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:1
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (Eph. 2:11-22 KJV)

Paul said that the Gentiles were far off and were without Christ, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers from the covenants of promise, Having no hope, and without God. However, in Christ they have been brought in as fellow citizens with the saints or the Jews. So now the Gentiles have the promises of Israel. I bolded the part where he said they were strangers from the covenants of promise. This is the hope Israel and the hope of the believer who is in Christ.

I said all that to say that the Jewish perspective is really important. The Jewish hope is the Christian hope. It's not really taught too much in Christianity, at least not from what I see. It's really a shame because so many Christians don't realize their hope. Instead many have the hope of the Greek philosophers.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Amen brother, I fully agree. We are grafted into the lump. I am not at my laptop right now so cannot add the verses now.

Also we are told in scripture, in all things whether praise or retribution, Jews first then Gentiles.

We have to know where we are and how we get/got here.

To God be the Glory brother.

There are two Israel's, the place and the spiritual Israel. We were told to pray for Israel, I was going to raise a thread on this but not had chance yet.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Amen brother, I fully agree. We are grafted into the lump. I am not at my laptop right now so cannot add the verses now.

Also we are told in scripture, in all things whether praise or retribution, Jews first then Gentiles.

We have to know where we are and how we get/got here.

To God be the Glory brother.

There are two Israel's, the place and the spiritual Israel. We were told to pray for Israel, I was going to raise a thread on this but not had chance yet.

At my laptop for 10 minutes so here are some of the scriptures I was referring to.

To the Jews first, and also to the gentiles.

Romans 1:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Romans 2:5-12 (NKJV)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

Jew or gentiles, we are only made Holy by being graphed into the branches of the original lump

Romans 11:16-24 (NKJV)
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Blessings \o/

 

[Butch5]

Amen brother, I fully agree. We are grafted into the lump. I am not at my laptop right now so cannot add the verses now.

Also we are told in scripture, in all things whether praise or retribution, Jews first then Gentiles.

We have to know where we are and how we get/got here.

To God be the Glory brother.

There are two Israel's, the place and the spiritual Israel. We were told to pray for Israel, I was going to raise a thread on this but not had chance yet.

Yeah, it would be great if this was taught more. Honestly I wonder how many pastors even realize it. It's all through the Paul's writings.

 

[Butch5]

At my laptop for 10 minutes so here are some of the scriptures I was referring to.

To the Jews first, and also to the gentiles.

Romans 1:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Romans 2:5-12 (NKJV)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

Jew or gentiles, we are only made Holy by being graphed into the branches of the original lump

Romans 11:16-24 (NKJV)
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Blessings \o/

Yep, these show how salvation comes through the Jews.

Amen brother, I fully agree. We are grafted into the lump. I am not at my laptop right now so cannot add the verses now.

Also we are told in scripture, in all things whether praise or retribution, Jews first then Gentiles.

We have to know where we are and how we get/got here.

To God be the Glory brother.

There are two Israel's, the place and the spiritual Israel. We were told to pray for Israel, I was going to raise a thread on this but not had chance yet.

I look forward to your thread!