KingJ
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Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom not heaven. Lazarus was not a Christian reigning with Jesus.
What to expect in Hell
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Brother-Paul
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Greetings brother.
Geneva Convection is not in scripture, please lets stick to scripture so as not to water down'The Word'
Glad I made you chuckle. :smile:
Posted in love.
Brother-Paul
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Greetings brother
I do not think, as you say, it is the King James version, I refer to it a lot, but I do not agree with @KingJ comments.
I feel it is interpretation of 'The Word' that is the issue.
Post in love.
Dave M
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I speaking of KingJ the poster not the bible sorry for the confusion
LOL
I was offended. Hey did you just say the ideas of the majority here are not Biblical?
KingJ
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I wish you guys would stick to the word too when you advocate a brazen bull type torture for the wicked.
If you believe we cannot reason and conduct a rational discussion on what is a fitting and fair punishment for the wicked, then you are not grasping many verses from Paul. 1 Cor 6:1-9, 1 Cor 11:31, 1 Cr 2:15, Isa 1:18 'Come let us reason', to name a few.
The Geneva convention was pioneered by good people who sat around the table and reasoned among one another.
You 'guys' keep saying ''scripture scripture scripture' for my assertions. It is pointless providing any scripture if one is stuck in tunnel vision off of a few cherry picked scriptures.
The ''scripture'' required to draw an accurate and correct picture of future hell is:
1. Scripture defining the Creator of Hell
2. Scripture speaking to the wrath of God in the past and present
3. Scripture speaking directly to what will happen in hell.
You guys pick scriptures that mention fire, darkness, torment, plagues and draw a terribly inaccurate picture of said location.
Concerning pt 1 above: God is good, not evil. Torture is evil. No evil takes place. Do we need a scripture to say '''no torture will take place''? No, we don't. We just need to grasp torment from a good God is not torture.
Concerning pt 2: His wrath on those sold out to wickedness is always instant as shown in a prior post. There is ''NO'' recorded scripture of God ever torturing His enemy just for the sake of it. Plagues I have spoke too and they simply do not hold water as the purpose behind plagues is to get wicked to repent. They are not yet sold out to wickedness.
Concerning pt 3: The ''ONLY'' scripture that mentions what specifically will happen in hell is Luke 13:28. The separation from a good God causes evildoers to weep and gnash their teeth.
I expected a lot more from you guys. Discernment, rational thinking and considering all scripture is lacking on this topic!
Now the reason I jump on this topic and on 'you all' this harshly is because preaching hell incorrectly paints God as wicked. This is a terrible blunder in our Christian walk as our ''SOLE'' purpose for being here on earth is to properly represent God to the lost.
In the O.T. death sentences were normal and righteous. David was an exception. The ground swallowing you alive was righteous. Jesus came and adulterous women didn't have to be stoned anymore. Grace came. No eye for eye.
But only because He took the punishment. If you reject that, all that's left is O.T. law. Yet ppl nowadays think it's totally normal that you hardly get punished for anything. Committed adultery? Who cares?
Rape? Get a year in a nice room for yourself. Stole? Get a community sentence. Clean up the park. Drugs? Buy em at the coffee shop.
And then they think O.T. laws from God are barbarian and evil.
The man next to Jesus on the cross said he got what he deserved. Now we say: what a gruesome barbarian thing to do, to let someone suffer on a cross.
I was once looking up on internet if universal reconciliation could be true. One evangelical pastor said yes and I got the idea that he got more ppl saved with teaching that. I was like: hey if this hell thing is such a stumbling block for them to go to Jesus, then maybe it ain't so bad that he teaches that, as long as they get saved. Oy.
In an old revival ppl would get a vision of hell during the hell preaching and all get really saved.
But only because He took the punishment. If you reject that, all that's left is O.T. law. Yet ppl nowadays think it's totally normal that you hardly get punished for anything. Committed adultery? Who cares?
Rape? Get a year in a nice room for yourself. Stole? Get a community sentence. Clean up the park. Drugs? Buy em at the coffee shop.
And then they think O.T. laws from God are barbarian and evil.
You can make it as nice as you want. Durch ex christians don't fall for that. God is considered evil anyway for punishing at all.
The man next to Jesus on the cross said he got what he deserved. Now we say: what a gruesome barbarian thing to do, to let someone suffer on a cross.
I was once looking up on internet if universal reconciliation could be true. One evangelical pastor said yes and I got the idea that he got more ppl saved with teaching that. I was like: hey if this hell thing is such a stumbling block for them to go to Jesus, then maybe it ain't so bad that he teaches that, as long as they get saved. Oy.
In an old revival ppl would get a vision of hell during the hell preaching and all get really saved.
Brother-Paul
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I said in Post #92...
I believe in all things we should always keep an open mind, not to what others say, but to any other scripture mentioning anything with regard to the topic being studied. many scripture verses have been included so far, the 4 references to 'lake of fire' where also considered in post #92 which also points to what the majority believe.
What is the clear, I am sure we all agree, is that the lake of fire is for the beast and the anti-christ who will be thrown in alive, and also satan.
But is the lake of fire for all none believers as well?
Let us look at a few other scriptures, it may make us think, it may not, but it is right to consider all scriptures. I think.
Some say - The popular concept of hell, is that the lake of fire is presumed place of everlasting torment for sinners,
Others say - it simply isn’t taught in the Bible.
>>> Final note I add here, when I started this message I didn't think it was going to take me to so many scriptures, so I apologise for the length of the post, but do welcome comments, I leave scripture to speak and pray the Holy Spirit guides our open hearts and minds. In Jesus Name. Amen
Start with the OT.
The OT teaches that the punishment of the wicked is simply death—the cessation of life.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (NKJV)
5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
There is no continuing existence after death. God, through the prophet Ezekiel, twice says,
Ezekiel 18:4 (NKJV)
4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 (NKJV)
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The soul [a mortal living creature] that sins shall die not suffer for eternity. Death is the penalty for those who sin.
God’s judgement on the wicked is described by the prophet Malachi. Under God’s inspiration he wrote:
Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.
This therefore says... they shall be burned up, ashes being all that are left when something is burned up, and this is what will happen to the incorrigibly wicked when they are thrown into the lake of fire. This is what the Old Testament teaches regarding the punishment of the wicked, and this teaching is also upheld by Jesus in the New Testament. The only statement from the Lord of Hosts that on it's own appears to leave a question mark is, under the souls of your feet.
Christ’s said:
Matthew 10:28 (NKJV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus did not speak of eternal torment for disobedience—instead, He spoke of one’s soul and body being destroyed.
It seems those who believe as @KingJ does base a lot of their reasoning on God's love for the world...
John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
Another verse often used is the following...
Ezekiel 33:11 (NKJV)
11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.
Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'
and
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But, the opposite of receiving everlasting life is to “perish.”
For the beast, the false prophet and the devil are thrown into the lake of fire...
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The word are in this verse is in italics in both the New King James Version, the King James Version and the New Jerusalem Bible, means that this word are was inserted by the translators—who apparently believed in eternal punishment of the wicked—to facilitate the reading and meaning of the verse as they understood it. They could just as easily have inserted the words were cast—which, we will see, is the better translation. So I looked at a few other translations...
In the following we have the words, are, had been and were.
Revelation 20:10 (NIV2011)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (CJB - Complete Jewish Bible)
10 The Adversary who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NJB - New Jerusalem Bible)
10 Then the devil, who led them astray, was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their torture will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever.
From Greek Strongs Number: 2532
Greek Word: καί
Root: apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force
Vine's Words: Also, Even (Adverb; etc.), Even as, Even so, Indeed, Likewise, Moreover, Yea, Yes
apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words :- and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.
God's Word/Good News puts it this way which may be a better translation.
Revelation 20:10 (GW)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.
The beast and false prophet, will be physical, mortal humans, they will quickly die when they are thrown into this lake of fire after Christ returns.
So we may ask at this stage, who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever,”
I then read this...
The KJV does not include the pronoun they in its rendering of this verse:
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
It appears here that wicked humans who are thrown into the lake of fire will be quickly destroyed. They will not live forever in agonizing pain and suffering.
The devil and his angels, are spirit beings and thus will not be killed by fire. They are the ones who will “be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
They are composed of spirit and therefore are not affected by fire, which is physical. Their torment will be a mental torment of what they have lost.
Jude indicates their final punishment will be that of being cast out into outer darkness forever
Jude 1:5-6 (NKJV)
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Jude 1:12-13 (NKJV)
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Stepping back to Malachi, the Wicked will be burned up, they will be like stubble!
Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
by the things written in God's Word.
Rev 20:11-12 tells us of the Great White Throne Judgement and says, the wicked will be judged according to their works. Then we have...
Revelation 20:13-15 (NKJV)
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Death has been defeated and death and hades are cast into the lake of fire
14 Then Death and Hades (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The final cleansing is to get rid of all those whose name is not in the Book of Life...
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The Bible says that the present earth is going to be burned up in preparation for “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away”
Revelation 21:1 (NKJV)
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
Peter wrote also about this time saying
2 Peter 3:10 (NKJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
I believe in all things we should always keep an open mind, not to what others say, but to any other scripture mentioning anything with regard to the topic being studied. many scripture verses have been included so far, the 4 references to 'lake of fire' where also considered in post #92 which also points to what the majority believe.
What is the clear, I am sure we all agree, is that the lake of fire is for the beast and the anti-christ who will be thrown in alive, and also satan.
But is the lake of fire for all none believers as well?
Let us look at a few other scriptures, it may make us think, it may not, but it is right to consider all scriptures. I think.
Some say - The popular concept of hell, is that the lake of fire is presumed place of everlasting torment for sinners,
Others say - it simply isn’t taught in the Bible.
>>> Final note I add here, when I started this message I didn't think it was going to take me to so many scriptures, so I apologise for the length of the post, but do welcome comments, I leave scripture to speak and pray the Holy Spirit guides our open hearts and minds. In Jesus Name. Amen
Start with the OT.
The OT teaches that the punishment of the wicked is simply death—the cessation of life.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 (NKJV)
5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.
There is no continuing existence after death. God, through the prophet Ezekiel, twice says,
Ezekiel 18:4 (NKJV)
4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 (NKJV)
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The soul [a mortal living creature] that sins shall die not suffer for eternity. Death is the penalty for those who sin.
God’s judgement on the wicked is described by the prophet Malachi. Under God’s inspiration he wrote:
Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.
This therefore says... they shall be burned up, ashes being all that are left when something is burned up, and this is what will happen to the incorrigibly wicked when they are thrown into the lake of fire. This is what the Old Testament teaches regarding the punishment of the wicked, and this teaching is also upheld by Jesus in the New Testament. The only statement from the Lord of Hosts that on it's own appears to leave a question mark is, under the souls of your feet.
Christ’s said:
Matthew 10:28 (NKJV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Jesus did not speak of eternal torment for disobedience—instead, He spoke of one’s soul and body being destroyed.
It seems those who believe as @KingJ does base a lot of their reasoning on God's love for the world...
John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
Another verse often used is the following...
Ezekiel 33:11 (NKJV)
11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.
Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'
and
2 Peter 3:9 (NKJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But, the opposite of receiving everlasting life is to “perish.”
For the beast, the false prophet and the devil are thrown into the lake of fire...
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The word are in this verse is in italics in both the New King James Version, the King James Version and the New Jerusalem Bible, means that this word are was inserted by the translators—who apparently believed in eternal punishment of the wicked—to facilitate the reading and meaning of the verse as they understood it. They could just as easily have inserted the words were cast—which, we will see, is the better translation. So I looked at a few other translations...
In the following we have the words, are, had been and were.
Revelation 20:10 (NIV2011)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (CJB - Complete Jewish Bible)
10 The Adversary who had deceived them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 (NJB - New Jerusalem Bible)
10 Then the devil, who led them astray, was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their torture will not come to an end, day or night, for ever and ever.
From Greek Strongs Number: 2532
Greek Word: καί
Root: apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force
Vine's Words: Also, Even (Adverb; etc.), Even as, Even so, Indeed, Likewise, Moreover, Yea, Yes
apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words :- and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.
God's Word/Good News puts it this way which may be a better translation.
Revelation 20:10 (GW)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever.
The beast and false prophet, will be physical, mortal humans, they will quickly die when they are thrown into this lake of fire after Christ returns.
So we may ask at this stage, who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever,”
I then read this...
The KJV does not include the pronoun they in its rendering of this verse:
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
It appears here that wicked humans who are thrown into the lake of fire will be quickly destroyed. They will not live forever in agonizing pain and suffering.
The devil and his angels, are spirit beings and thus will not be killed by fire. They are the ones who will “be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
They are composed of spirit and therefore are not affected by fire, which is physical. Their torment will be a mental torment of what they have lost.
Jude indicates their final punishment will be that of being cast out into outer darkness forever
Jude 1:5-6 (NKJV)
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Jude 1:12-13 (NKJV)
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Stepping back to Malachi, the Wicked will be burned up, they will be like stubble!
Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
by the things written in God's Word.
Rev 20:11-12 tells us of the Great White Throne Judgement and says, the wicked will be judged according to their works. Then we have...
Revelation 20:13-15 (NKJV)
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Death has been defeated and death and hades are cast into the lake of fire
14 Then Death and Hades (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The final cleansing is to get rid of all those whose name is not in the Book of Life...
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
The Bible says that the present earth is going to be burned up in preparation for “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away”
Revelation 21:1 (NKJV)
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
Peter wrote also about this time saying
2 Peter 3:10 (NKJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
Brother-Paul
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Bless you Dave :grin: it's good to laugh
KingJ
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The above two verses caught my eye.
Malachi is talking to flesh being burnt. Spirits that live eternally do not become stubble.
2 Peter 3:10 is also not talking to hell and what takes place there-in. It is talking to a change coming. We know a change is coming at the end of the tribulation. We know a change is coming at the end of the millennium.
KingJ
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Punshment can be done without being implicated of any evil.
God is light with 'NO'' darkness in Him ''AT ALL'' 1 John 1:5.
Brother-Paul
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Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
by the things written in God's Word.
2 Peter 3:10 (NKJV)
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
I agree 2 Peter 3:10 is talking of when Christ makes all things new and the elements will melt with fervent heat.
The beast, false prophet and devil and his angels are certainly thrown into the lake of fire.
The beast and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire ALIVE. They are thrown into the lake of fire alive, living humans, this includes their bodies, their soul and spirit. These will not live, the bodies will burn for sure, but will their soul and spirit suffer for eternity?
The devil and his angels are thrown into the lake of fire, they are spirits. All are consumed by the heat and the fire. They will be tormented day and night forever.
But one thing I did notice as I read through the scriptures,
The OT appears to refer to the first death as being the end for the body, hades the grave.
Those who are lost souls and die the first death, wait in hades which is the grave, they stay there until the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of their time.
The wicked will be burned up as stubble. Now I am looking for the gnashing of teeth, but am not seeing it, someone may add scripture to confirm the wicked will gnash their teeth, if not it is only the beast, false prophet, devil and his angels that do so when thrown in the lake of fire.
Comments form ALL welcome.
Brother-Paul
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The wicked will be punished for rejecting God and his commandments, for rejecting Jesus who died for them.
After the latest study with the additional scripture, I keep an open mind. It seems at the present time, that they, the Wicked, the none believers, will be burned as stubble, but I am not sure these will be crying and weeping and gnashing of teeth for eternity.
Seems that there's a desire to minimize the effect that hell / lake of fire and brimstone is going to have on an individual. We Do realize, don't we -- that God is Not Sending anyone there. Except for satan, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone Else has a choice. Rejecting God's gift of salvation From eternity in that eternal lake of fire and brimstone is the only reason any people will end up there,
So 'we' seem to be wondering if the suffering will be temporary or permanent. Well -- That will be as eternal as heaven will be.
And what would happen to a soul After suffering in hell for a while. So -- what Does it mean that the soul that sins will die? I'm going to look that up. Seems that That phrase is from Ezekiel and has been lifted out of it's context. That it's not talking about our salvation or that our soul will never die.
A person's soul will exist in eternity forever Somewhere. Lets' not minimize the horrors of eternal hell just because we don't believe the loving God won't let anyone Really suffer that much. No one is going to suffer for just a little while and then be let into heaven.
So 'we' seem to be wondering if the suffering will be temporary or permanent. Well -- That will be as eternal as heaven will be.
And what would happen to a soul After suffering in hell for a while. So -- what Does it mean that the soul that sins will die? I'm going to look that up. Seems that That phrase is from Ezekiel and has been lifted out of it's context. That it's not talking about our salvation or that our soul will never die.
A person's soul will exist in eternity forever Somewhere. Lets' not minimize the horrors of eternal hell just because we don't believe the loving God won't let anyone Really suffer that much. No one is going to suffer for just a little while and then be let into heaven.
KingJ
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Are you saying the devil never had a choice?
What suffering exactly?
What? No. Lets not imply ''horrors'' of hell when our God created it. Unless you are thinking God is the devil...? Are you? Wrong religion maybe?
KingJ
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Annihilationism is most definitely a much saner belief compared to eternal ''torture in fire''.
But the truth is better. God honors free will and makes a home for those who don't want to be with Him. He can only describe such a place as outer darkness, fire and torment as He speaks from His vantage point. He is going to give us saints rewards and treasures beyond our wildest imaginations. What do the lost get? Just because they are not in heaven does now equate to them getting a ''brazen bull''.
Brother-Paul
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Dear sister
There is no desire to minimise the effect that hell / lake of fire and brimstone is going to have on an individual.
We are told to search the scripture, the details I added were related to the topic, at the point of writing it was the lake of fire, therefore we should consider these extra scriptures. If we don't, we are not accepting all scripture that would be sad, no it would be bad.
I emphasise, as I have said earlier, the scripture added above are intended for consideration and discussion. But all replies for or against should be backed by scripture. I am sure you will agree.
As I have said many times, when I consider additional scripture for a topic, context is important, in the verses quoted and regarding the topic discussed. As I also said near the start I agree with what you say, but when addition scriptures relating to a topic are added for consideration and discussion is that not what we should do?
I keep an open mind when additional scriptures are quoted, sadly the forum is getting more and more members who are adamant that their view is the only one that is correct, I am not referring to yourself. It is sad, I feel, surely as saved believers, we should love one another as Christ loves us, respecting one anothers views. We should All put forward what we believe for discussion, that is healthy for us all, but many now seem to be hammering home their view is right and not willing to discuss together what The Word says, some don't include scripture to back their ideas.
May the peace of God, which surpasses all our understanding, guard our hearts and minds in love in the knowledge and love of God through Christ Jesus our Lord. In Jesus precious name we pray. Amen
We are one body with Christ Jesus, we are meant to be in harmony, one with another.
Posted in His Love.
Brother-Paul
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At this stage I am not saying which option is right, I am not minimising anything, neither am I saying I believe your thoughts on this brother, I say that with love and respect.
What I have done is included other scriptures for us all to consider as they relate to the topic, it is clear the beast, false prophet and the devil will all be thrown in the lake of fire, and there will be crying, weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It is also clear that the lost souls in this world will be punished by God after being judged. Lets not get away from that. But will they be thrown into the lake of fire. The aim here now is to create a discussion and talk about the various scriptures, how they relate and see what we feel scripture says about the outcome for the lost souls.
Maybe another consideration here is the human being, made up of
- body from the dust of the earth
- Spirit
- and Soul
Lets All look at what happens to these at first death for the Lost Soul, where they go, when they come before the Great White Throne Judgement and what happens to each part at each stage. Then come back to the scriptures we have all been discussing.
The first death would be when a person dies -- The person who has not accepted Christ as their Savior will be in Hades (compartment in Abraham's bosom).
Revelation 20 talks about this -- vs 6 "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection . Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ , and shall reign with Him a thousand years,
this is commenting about the 1st resurrection.
then vs 12 " And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before god, and books were opened.
And Another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.
And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
vs 13 "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
vs 14 "then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.. "This is the second death."
vs 15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
I was trying to figure out if which group of 'dead' were judged according to their works which were written in the books.
There Are crowns that believers will be receiving -- apparently those will be determined by what we've done as believers. And we'll be laying them at the feet of Jesus.
Someone has suggested that non-believers -- those condemned to lake of fire -- will Also be judged as to how good or bad they were. Possibly degrees of punishment?
But considering the description Of hell -- lake of fire and brimstone. Total darkness, etc. doesn't sound like anyone will be seeing Anyone or Anything.
Just looked up the crowns -- there are five of them.
Victors crown -- 1 Corinthians 9:25
Crown of rejoicing 1 Thess. 2:19
Crown of Righteousness -- 2 Timothy 4:8
Crown of Life -- James 1;12 and Rev. 2:10
Crown of Gory 1 Peter 5:4
Revelation 20 talks about this -- vs 6 "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection . Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ , and shall reign with Him a thousand years,
this is commenting about the 1st resurrection.
then vs 12 " And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before god, and books were opened.
And Another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.
And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
vs 13 "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
vs 14 "then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.. "This is the second death."
vs 15 "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
I was trying to figure out if which group of 'dead' were judged according to their works which were written in the books.
There Are crowns that believers will be receiving -- apparently those will be determined by what we've done as believers. And we'll be laying them at the feet of Jesus.
Someone has suggested that non-believers -- those condemned to lake of fire -- will Also be judged as to how good or bad they were. Possibly degrees of punishment?
But considering the description Of hell -- lake of fire and brimstone. Total darkness, etc. doesn't sound like anyone will be seeing Anyone or Anything.
Just looked up the crowns -- there are five of them.
Victors crown -- 1 Corinthians 9:25
Crown of rejoicing 1 Thess. 2:19
Crown of Righteousness -- 2 Timothy 4:8
Crown of Life -- James 1;12 and Rev. 2:10
Crown of Gory 1 Peter 5:4
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Thread 'The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !'
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