What to expect in Hell
- Thread starter KingJ
- Start date
- Status
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
These are my understanding regarding - 'body, spirit and soul.'
A person on earth consists of, a physical body and a spirit/soul.
Scripture uses “soul” and “spirit” interchangeably.
SOUL - Hebrew “nephesh” and Greek “psychē”
SPIRIT - Hebrew “rûach” and Greek “pneuma”
The none believer (in Christ) consists of, a physical body and a dead spirit/soul.
A born again saved believer in Christ consists of, a physical body and a living spirit/soul.
The spirit/soul only come to life when Jesus abides in us, when we are Born-Again.
FOLLOWING FIRST DEATH
What happens when a none believer dies? The physical body returns to the dust of the earth.
In OT times, the spirit/soul went to Shoel, an intermediate place, awaiting final judgement.
In NT times, the spirit/soul goes to Hades, the intermediate place, awaiting final judgement.
What happens when a born again believer dies? The physical body returns to the dust of the earth.
The spirit/soul returns to God, to it's temporary/intermediate place, which is the Current Heaven.
NONE BELIEVER after First death
The spirit/soul is in Hades, in prison.
1 Peter 3:19 - in which also He [Christ] went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison
Those who have died outside of the Lord are under his judgement.
Hebrews 9:27 - And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgement
Luke tells us, Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazarus. This account gives us insight into the intermediate state of the wicked dead.
Luke 16:19-31 - There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be at Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.' He said, 'Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house - for I have five brothers - that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.' Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.' He said, 'No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead'"
This appears to be after the first death, for a none believer in Christ, where the spirit/soul is in Hades.
Is it as stated? Is it a parable? Some say one some say the other.
What are we told?
- Lazarus is named.
- this scripture is not introduced as a parable
- a specific number of brothers are mentioned, 5.
- all other parables Jesus taught were based on this life and heaven, this one is totally different to all other parables.
What can we learn? (This is from first death to Christ's Return and judgement, it does not cover what happens after judgement)
- The saved and lost survive after death (spirits/souls) both await judgement
--- saved souls for what they have done for Jesus in this life
--- lost souls The Great White Throne Judgement where they will be judged for all their sins
- There was an actual place the spirit/soul goes after first death
--- Saved to Current Heaven, an intermediate place.
--- Lost to Hades an intermediate place for the wicked.
- The rich man in Hades was conscious, he could see, hear, talk and feel.
- he could also experience suffering.
- where a spirit/soul goes after first death is irreversible, there is no second chance, no crossing over.
- the rich man was thirsty
- he was continually tormented (torment is used 5 times in this scripture account)
- he was separated and without hope
- He was well-aware of what he had done.
- The rich man wanted Lazarus to use his finger to give him water. The fact that he is experiencing thirst gives us the impression that he is suffering.
The account from Luke's Gospel, provides a contrast of believers and unbelievers after death. It also gives us a look into the unseen world of the wicked dead.
Whether or not he had an actual body we do not know, we do know from scripture what happens to a believers and none believers spirit/soul.
What we also know is that he was fully conscious of his surroundings, he was not in a state of sleep.
Note: these accounts are from first death of believers in Christ, and none believers, up until Christ's Return and Final Judgement.
A person on earth consists of, a physical body and a spirit/soul.
Scripture uses “soul” and “spirit” interchangeably.
SOUL - Hebrew “nephesh” and Greek “psychē”
SPIRIT - Hebrew “rûach” and Greek “pneuma”
The none believer (in Christ) consists of, a physical body and a dead spirit/soul.
A born again saved believer in Christ consists of, a physical body and a living spirit/soul.
The spirit/soul only come to life when Jesus abides in us, when we are Born-Again.
FOLLOWING FIRST DEATH
What happens when a none believer dies? The physical body returns to the dust of the earth.
In OT times, the spirit/soul went to Shoel, an intermediate place, awaiting final judgement.
In NT times, the spirit/soul goes to Hades, the intermediate place, awaiting final judgement.
What happens when a born again believer dies? The physical body returns to the dust of the earth.
The spirit/soul returns to God, to it's temporary/intermediate place, which is the Current Heaven.
NONE BELIEVER after First death
The spirit/soul is in Hades, in prison.
1 Peter 3:19 - in which also He [Christ] went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison
Those who have died outside of the Lord are under his judgement.
Hebrews 9:27 - And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgement
Luke tells us, Jesus told the story of the rich man and Lazarus. This account gives us insight into the intermediate state of the wicked dead.
Luke 16:19-31 - There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to satisfy his hunger with what fell from the rich man's table; even the dogs would come and lick his sores. The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be at Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. He called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in agony in these flames.' But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony. Besides all this, between you and us a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who might want to pass from here to you cannot do so, and no one can cross from there to us.' He said, 'Then, father, I beg you to send him to my father's house - for I have five brothers - that he may warn them, so that they will not also come into this place of torment.' Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the prophets; they should listen to them.' He said, 'No, father Abraham; but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced even if someone rises from the dead'"
This appears to be after the first death, for a none believer in Christ, where the spirit/soul is in Hades.
Is it as stated? Is it a parable? Some say one some say the other.
What are we told?
- Lazarus is named.
- this scripture is not introduced as a parable
- a specific number of brothers are mentioned, 5.
- all other parables Jesus taught were based on this life and heaven, this one is totally different to all other parables.
What can we learn? (This is from first death to Christ's Return and judgement, it does not cover what happens after judgement)
- The saved and lost survive after death (spirits/souls) both await judgement
--- saved souls for what they have done for Jesus in this life
--- lost souls The Great White Throne Judgement where they will be judged for all their sins
- There was an actual place the spirit/soul goes after first death
--- Saved to Current Heaven, an intermediate place.
--- Lost to Hades an intermediate place for the wicked.
- The rich man in Hades was conscious, he could see, hear, talk and feel.
- he could also experience suffering.
- where a spirit/soul goes after first death is irreversible, there is no second chance, no crossing over.
- the rich man was thirsty
- he was continually tormented (torment is used 5 times in this scripture account)
- he was separated and without hope
- He was well-aware of what he had done.
- The rich man wanted Lazarus to use his finger to give him water. The fact that he is experiencing thirst gives us the impression that he is suffering.
The account from Luke's Gospel, provides a contrast of believers and unbelievers after death. It also gives us a look into the unseen world of the wicked dead.
Whether or not he had an actual body we do not know, we do know from scripture what happens to a believers and none believers spirit/soul.
What we also know is that he was fully conscious of his surroundings, he was not in a state of sleep.
Note: these accounts are from first death of believers in Christ, and none believers, up until Christ's Return and Final Judgement.
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
Following in from last post...
In the following we have the words, are, had been and were.
Revelation 20:10 (NIV2011)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The beast and false prophet, will be physical, mortal humans, they will quickly die when they are thrown into this lake of fire after Christ returns.
So we may ask at this stage, who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever,”
I then read this...
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
It appears that wicked humans who are thrown into the lake of fire will be quickly destroyed. They will not live forever in agonizing pain and suffering.
The devil and his angels, are spirit beings and thus will not be killed by fire. They are the ones who will “be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
They are composed of spirit and therefore are not affected by fire, which is physical. Their torment will be a mental torment of what they have lost.
Jude indicates their final punishment will be that of being cast out into outer darkness forever
Jude 1:5-6 (NKJV)
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Jude 1:12-13 (NKJV)
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
by the things written in God's Word.
Rev 20:11-12 tells us of the Great White Throne Judgement and says, the wicked will be judged according to their works. Then we have...
Revelation 20:13-15 (NKJV)
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Death has been defeated and death and hades are cast into the lake of fire
14 Then Death and Hades (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The final cleansing is to get rid of all those whose name is not in the Book of Life...
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
We are told the wicked, ungodly will suffer, will be judged, in this post and #162 above, it appears to indicated the suffering of the wicked will be in Hades, then after judgement Rev 20:13-15 the wicked, death and Hades are finally removed and end up in the lake of fire.
It does not appear to be saying the wicked, ungodly, will cry and weep and gnash their teeth, only the beast, false prophet, the devil and his angels.
This does not mean the unGodly don't suffer, they certainly do, first the spirit/soul suffers in Hades, then they are raised and judged at the Great White Throne judgement before finally they end up in the lake of fire, as does hades.
In the following we have the words, are, had been and were.
Revelation 20:10 (NIV2011)
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The beast and false prophet, will be physical, mortal humans, they will quickly die when they are thrown into this lake of fire after Christ returns.
So we may ask at this stage, who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever,”
I then read this...
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
It appears that wicked humans who are thrown into the lake of fire will be quickly destroyed. They will not live forever in agonizing pain and suffering.
The devil and his angels, are spirit beings and thus will not be killed by fire. They are the ones who will “be tormented day and night forever and ever.”
They are composed of spirit and therefore are not affected by fire, which is physical. Their torment will be a mental torment of what they have lost.
Jude indicates their final punishment will be that of being cast out into outer darkness forever
Jude 1:5-6 (NKJV)
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
Jude 1:12-13 (NKJV)
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots;
13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)
1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
by the things written in God's Word.
Rev 20:11-12 tells us of the Great White Throne Judgement and says, the wicked will be judged according to their works. Then we have...
Revelation 20:13-15 (NKJV)
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Death has been defeated and death and hades are cast into the lake of fire
14 Then Death and Hades (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The final cleansing is to get rid of all those whose name is not in the Book of Life...
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
We are told the wicked, ungodly will suffer, will be judged, in this post and #162 above, it appears to indicated the suffering of the wicked will be in Hades, then after judgement Rev 20:13-15 the wicked, death and Hades are finally removed and end up in the lake of fire.
It does not appear to be saying the wicked, ungodly, will cry and weep and gnash their teeth, only the beast, false prophet, the devil and his angels.
This does not mean the unGodly don't suffer, they certainly do, first the spirit/soul suffers in Hades, then they are raised and judged at the Great White Throne judgement before finally they end up in the lake of fire, as does hades.
KingJ
Active
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 4,655
What scripture are you quoting? I have read the whole bible and have no idea what makes you say that.
@KingJ -- WELL -- THERE WILL BE TOTAL DARKNESS -- TOTAL DARKNESS WITHOUT GOD. GOD'S WORD TALKS ABOUT KNASHING OF TEETH -- THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE. AND PROBABLY TERROR WHEN YOU REALIZE WHERE YOU ACTUALLY ARE AND THAT SATAN LIED TO YOU. AND POSSIBLY THE REALIZATION THAT ALL THE WARNINGS PEOPLE TRIED TO GIVE BUT WERE LAUGHED AT OR IGNORED BY 'YOU'.
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN A PITCH-BLACK ROOM? i HAVE -- COULDN'T SEE MY HAND IN FRONT OF MY FACE. IT'S A TOTAL DARKNESS THAT YOU'RE EYES DON'T GET USED TO. AND PROBABLY HEARING EVERYONE AROUND YOU IN THE SAME SITUATION. AND IT LASTS FOREVER.
THERE'S THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS -- HIS LIPS WERE SO PARCHED THAT HE BEGGED FOR EVEN A DROP OF WATER TO SOOTH THEM.
HAVE YOU EVER BEEN IN A PITCH-BLACK ROOM? i HAVE -- COULDN'T SEE MY HAND IN FRONT OF MY FACE. IT'S A TOTAL DARKNESS THAT YOU'RE EYES DON'T GET USED TO. AND PROBABLY HEARING EVERYONE AROUND YOU IN THE SAME SITUATION. AND IT LASTS FOREVER.
THERE'S THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS -- HIS LIPS WERE SO PARCHED THAT HE BEGGED FOR EVEN A DROP OF WATER TO SOOTH THEM.
KingJ
Active
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 4,655
You need to quote the actual scriptures. There is important context to some of your statements.
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,724
if anyone wants to know what to expect in hell it is clearly outlined in scripture.
It is eternal punishment and torment, it really that simple. To give any hope of any escape from this is just wrong.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
so now this is usually when the OP will come in and say "we cant cherry pick a verse to back up our point of view", after he clearly ask for scripture :crying:.
Dear bother King to give any hope to people that hell is not the worst imaginable place of torment is a lie from the devil period end of story.
It is eternal punishment and torment, it really that simple. To give any hope of any escape from this is just wrong.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
so now this is usually when the OP will come in and say "we cant cherry pick a verse to back up our point of view", after he clearly ask for scripture :crying:.
Dear bother King to give any hope to people that hell is not the worst imaginable place of torment is a lie from the devil period end of story.
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
Well put brother on both counts.
I would not like to be responsible for misleading people, by telling them that hell is anything less than what you clearly point out. (With scripture)
It is like saying (earthly explanation of two contrasting situation) don't worry that the furness you see is white hot, it is only a light inside, it is therefore not as bad as you think.
Image standing before the Lord and trying to explain that. You made it clear my friend, and included scripture.
KingJ
Active
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 4,655
It appears you have absolutely no clue what cherry picking is.
I will give you an example. Dave is a strong man. He gyms all day. At gym he gets sweaty and smelly. Now, a pretty girl comes to me and asks me about Dave. If all I say is, ''Dave is sweaty and smelly'' and place a fullstop there, have I accurately represented you?
Hell is eternal separation / an eternal punishment. Correct.
Hell is described by God as a place of eternal torment. Correct.
So, let's consider, why would a good God Psalm 136:1, with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5, who is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, create a hell and separate those their for eternity?
As I say in my OP, those that will be in hell are called ''evildoers'' Luke 13:27. IE Unrepentant people. As Jesus says of the devil in 1 John 3:8 ''he has been sinning since the beginning''.
So, God has basically just created a place for those that hate Him, want to continue in sin, to live. He could annihilate them, He is not. He is honoring their free will to hate Him.
As for torment, the only verse in the entire bible that speaks directly to why people are in suffering in hell is Luke 13:28. ''They weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see God (a good God) with the prophets and that they are cast out''.
Now, I am waiting for BAC to come with examples of plagues, ebola virus, quote the rich man asking for a ''drop'' of water in Hades....to somehow paint a picture of hell being a cruel and torturous place from ''God's doing''. Just more cherry picking and construing.
As I say in my OP, it is a horrible place because of the company we have for all eternity. I also espouse a momentary punishment, like a day of whipping or something like what Jesus endured for sin. That is ''it''.
I honestly have no clue what grass you guys are smoking when you read the bible and espouse a Dante's inferno type of hell!!
Last edited:
KingJ
Active
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 4,655
I could not agree more. I find Dave's position ironic.
I would be TERRIFIED of standing before God one-day and be guilty of miss-representing Him to the lost. I am sure God would say something like Matt 18:6 to us ''better for you to hang a millstone around your neck and drown yourself''.
Currently, those espousing He will place people in brazen bull type punishment for all eternity ARE implying He is ''wicked plus''. NOBODY wants to willingly serve a wicked God.
Our God is the furthest thing from wicked 1 John 1:5. This is why I serve Him! This is why the lost will also serve Him!
The God that many here describe is cruel and wicked. I am just shocked that some here want to willingly serve Him whilst believing what they do on hell.
_____________________________________________________
SERVE GOD, or else, for all eternity maggots will eat your flesh, fire will burn you repeatedly, nobody will give you water, you will eat your tongue, you will bump into walls all the time because its dark, you will suffer even more because the torture devices were created for the angels, not you. Oh and by they way God is good and loves you. Choose Jesus! Choose Life!
Hilarious!
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
Answer if Dave has just spent all his time in the gym and is sweaty and smelly I think it is a good example of Dave.
:grin:
He would still be a loving brother in Christ though.
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
Parable of wheat and chaff, Jesus' words. Matt 3:12
Who goes to the eternal fire? The evil doers
Who are the evil doers? The Sinners
If God is not your Father the devil is.
The wages of sin is death
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
It does appear to be a horrible place my friend, I am making sure I am not going there, I don't want to find out, it just makes me want to pray more for peoples salvation.
as for the company in that place, I do not believe you will be aware of much company, the heat, the smell, the burning, the thirstiness, the crying, the weeping, the gnashing of teeth, with be unbearable torment. What happens in this life when we suffer? We withdraw from company, we look at our self, we cannot get pain out of our head and that is just pain, not the burning, not the crying and weeping or the gnashing of teeth.
I winder where you get momentary punishment, when scripture says it will be eternal?
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
God is, I agree, not a wicked God, He is a loving God, a loving Father, but loving Fathers look after the good and reprimand the wicked. In scripture wicked is sin, and God hates sin.
But we only need to look at scripture, we have discussed this before in another thread, God allowed Pharaoh's army to drown in the Red Sea, God allowed the whole world to die in the great flood, except Noah and his family, eight souls. What about Sodom and Gomorrah, what about Lot, we could carry on, but why were they punished as they were? Because of their wickedness, because of rejecting God, because of SIN!
So God in His tender Mercy and with His loving kindness, in these end times, gave all authority in heaven and on earth to His Son, to Jesus. But in doing so He set rules.
Everyone has the same choice, we accept God, we come to Him though Jesus, we repent of our sins and mean it, we are sorry for our sins, we give our life to Jesus and Walk the walk to eternal life. He gives everyone the same choice, accept My Son repent and be saved, Jesus paid the proce for our sins so we do not have to. If we don't accept Jesus we choose to pay the price our self and the wages of sin is death. Eternal death. So God is loving, God is fare.
John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
God showed His love to mankind, so that mankind can be saved through Jesus and NOT PERISH.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
God showed His love for the whole world by sending Jesus to take upon himself our sins, the sins of the whole world.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You see God gave us all choice, He does not force us yo accept Jesus, He has made clear the way to eternal life, but he who chooses not to accept it has condemned himself by choosing not to accept God's Free Gift of Salvation.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (Sinfull)
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
Man has a simple choice from a loving God:
come to Jesus, come to the cross, repent of your sins, accept the free gift of salvation, He died on the cross for you, He shed His blood for you, give your life to Jesus and following Him --- OR --- go your own way, the worldly way and pay the price for your sins, eternal damnation.
You know what stands out most to be my friend, place an advert for something and say it is FREE and you will have the world after it.
God offers the FREE Gift of Salvation and people back off and go the other way.
KingJ
Active
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 4,655
Punishment is eternal separation.
In addition to this, I believe in a session of punishment directly related to our sins. Take Jesus as an example. It pleased God to bruise Him. What was His bruising? Flesh beaten and crucified. Suffering physical pain for some six hours.
Six hours! Not two days. Not a week. Not a month. Not a year. Not a 100 years. Not a 1000 years. Not an eternity!
I also consider Rev 6:10. The saints in heaven are asking God when He will avenge them. They have a real expectation of God punishing the wicked. They want to see eye for an eye or less, but still a punishment of sort. Now we know that saints in the tribulation will suffer torture for ten days and then be put to death Rev 2:10, so at worst they would want the same. Not, ''Oh Lord, please avenge us by placing that guy who did this to me in a brazen bull for a year''.
No Christian right now would sentence a criminal to any such thing as a brazen bull. If a serial murderer was standing before us, one who killed our children, I / we should just want to see him put to death or get life in prison. Not '''burn in fire for all eternity''.
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,724
Brother King you are thinking you can think like God but you can not at all think
Here lies the problem brother you are thinking God thinks like man, which is contrary to the word of God.
Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Here lies the problem brother you are thinking God thinks like man, which is contrary to the word of God.
Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
@KingJ --God does warn all of us about what hell / lake of fire and brimstone are all about. Who that location is meant For and who will end up there. The book of Revelation tells us that eternal hell is only meant for 3 people/ entities -- satan, the beast and the false prophet. They are the only one's who Deserve to end up there. Well -- actually all of us are sinners and our sinfulness would put us in hell, too. And forever. HOWEVER -- God -- in His mercy / grace has provided a way The only way for 'us' to be able to stay out of there. All 'we' need to do is acknowledge our need For salvation. Salvation means being 'saved' from something. In This case, it's being saved from spending eternity in hell // lake of fire and brimstone. The purpose of Jesus Christ being here on earth for those 33 yrs. or so -- was to become our Savior From hell. And we acknowledge that the blood of Jesus Christ that was shed for us IS enough. Nothing 'we' can do will help our salvation.
In our human nature -- as Dave M has stated -- we Don't think like God thinks. We can't fathom 'forever'. Everyone we know gets a second chance at most everything. In school -- students can't be failed anymore. Everyone is entittled to 'get a lolly-pop" We're all familiar with death. Physical life is temporary. We see caskets being lowered into the ground -- as if that's the person's final resting place. Well -- God's Word tells us that it's only a Temporary resting place for our physical bodies. The tent we live in. The 'real' us is either with Jesus Christ or in hades/ hell -- whatever it's called. the bad part of Abraham's bosom. And 'they' are waiting for eternity.
There 's a book I've been reading -- reminding 'us' that the present heaven is really only temporary. Just as hell is only temporary. Eventually real eternity will start in the New Jerusalem. That will be taken down from heaven by God, Himself.
And the Real lake of fire and brimstone will have non-believers put there as well as satan , the beast and the false prophet. HOWEVER -- our salvation is determined while 'we' are still alive Here. There's no purification state / place.
In our human nature -- as Dave M has stated -- we Don't think like God thinks. We can't fathom 'forever'. Everyone we know gets a second chance at most everything. In school -- students can't be failed anymore. Everyone is entittled to 'get a lolly-pop" We're all familiar with death. Physical life is temporary. We see caskets being lowered into the ground -- as if that's the person's final resting place. Well -- God's Word tells us that it's only a Temporary resting place for our physical bodies. The tent we live in. The 'real' us is either with Jesus Christ or in hades/ hell -- whatever it's called. the bad part of Abraham's bosom. And 'they' are waiting for eternity.
There 's a book I've been reading -- reminding 'us' that the present heaven is really only temporary. Just as hell is only temporary. Eventually real eternity will start in the New Jerusalem. That will be taken down from heaven by God, Himself.
And the Real lake of fire and brimstone will have non-believers put there as well as satan , the beast and the false prophet. HOWEVER -- our salvation is determined while 'we' are still alive Here. There's no purification state / place.
KingJ
Active
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 4,655
A verse like Isaiah 55:8-9 and a verse like ''do not judge'' in Matt 7:1-6 has absolutely nothing to do with a Christian.
A Christian has the mind of Christ 1 Cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
We are new creations 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.2 The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
We are born of God John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
We are created after the likeness of God Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
We can judge all matters 1 Cor 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things.
Paul urges as to ''be'' Christians and judge matters ''better'' then the unsaved. He even says we will judge angels 1 Cor 6:1-9 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
So, sorry Dave you are terribly wrong. You are implying God's ways are not our ways = Torture is '''His ways'''' = God is wicked. We know God well. We can discern what He will do to the wicked for eternity. He is not ''secretly wicked'' or some messed up idea of ''holy''. Just shocking that you speak as though you are not an ambassador of God. Ambassadors '''know''' God. That is why we are His ambassadors! The Holy Spirit is here to teach us about God / the truth John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Now the most wicked people that ever lived placed their enemies in brazen bull type torture devices. Christians and Jews opt for (should opt for) quick deaths or long prison sentences with absolutely no torture whatsoever. Torture = wicked. In no universe, in no time zone will it ever not be wicked. Fact. It is a polar opposite of ''good and righteous''. Our God is good Psalm 136:1 and righteous Psalm 145:17....in ALL His ways.
Psalm 145:17
NIV The Lord is righteous in all his ways
KJV The Lord is righteous in all his ways
NKJV The Lord is righteous in all His ways
NLT The Lord is righteous in everything he does
GNT The Lord is righteous in all he does
KingJ
Active
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2015
- Messages
- 4,655
Would you ever not call someone guilty of torture, wicked?
- Status
Trending content
-
-
Thread 'The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !'
- Brightfame52
Replies: 286 -
-
-
