Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[Stephen1]

The evidence of the Lord's pre-tribulation call for believers is recorded in Revelation 4,5,7,11,12,18,19,20 .... those who are already in heaven, in His temple, and around His throne; and who will observe His opening of the seals of the scroll which will precede the actual judgment events beginning in chapter 8 .... look for these believers in each of the chapters noted .... these are not on the earth .... they will consist of both those asleep and those living at the time of the Lord's call

Those who dwell in heaven during the Lord's hour [time] of trial are the 24 elders and the great multitude who are seen in heaven as Revelation unfolds

These will return with the Lord to the earth as noted in chapter 19 and they are those on thrones [symbol of the Lord's government] in chapter 20

Those who become believers during His hour [time] of trouble of 2,550 days are those who will be martyred by beheading noted in chapter 20

All humans who survive the tribulation period physically will be gathered and separated by the Lord for enterence into His millennial kingdom on the earth .... those mortals who are found believing will enter and populate the kingdom .... those found in unbelief will not

This gathering after the tribulation period is not a resurrection, but a gathering of mortals .... if all surviving believers were "raptured" just after the tribulation period there would be no mortal believers to enter the kingdom .... but there will be [Matthew 29-31: 25:31-46]

The Lord's intent to immortalize today's church just before His coming hour [time] of trial is a biblical fact [1Corinthians 15:22-58; 1Thessalonians 4:16; 2Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10, 18:4]

Those of the professing church who are ready will be called .... those who profess only will not [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:16]

Make certain that you are ready and are not deceived about this issue .... billions who enter the tribulation period will not repent, will not survive, will be killed, and will be lost forever

 

[Stephen1]

The Lord speaks to the church in the following verses .... first His evaluation of the condition of the church on the earth in Revelation 2 & 3 .... and then His call to immortalize the true believers just before He brings His hour of trial upon an unbelieving world.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o> </o>
First Trumpet Sounding For The Church
<o> </o>
Revelation
1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet
<o> </o>
1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on">Ephesus</st1:City>, and unto <st1:City w:st="on">Smyrna</st1:City>, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto <st1:City w:st="on">Sardis</st1:City>, and unto <st1:City w:st="on">Philadelphia</st1:City>, and unto <st1:City w:st="on"><st1lace w:st="on">Laodicea</st1lace></st1:City>
<o> </o>
1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter [at the end of this present age]
<o> </o>
4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
<o> </o>
3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
<o> </o>
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
<o> </o>
Last Trumpet Sounding For The Church
<o> </o>
Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
<o> </o>
1Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
<o> </o>
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
<o> </o>
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
<o> </o>
1Corinthians
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

 

[MR_777]

We are currently being preached on the topic of the end of times and I felt compelled to share our messages. With the new movie "2012" just being released, we have been blessed with an amazing series of messages regarding this very thing. Check for yourself at the website wwwthechapelcom. Sorry, but I can't post links right now. I don't have enough posts under my belt, but don't let that stop you. You will not be disappointed. God Bless.:sure:

 

[spirit1st]

We are taught we must forgive and forget!
But it appears these did not forgive! In fact They wanted our LORD to punish those who killed them!
This scripture has Always made me wonder?
Was it wrong for us to want those who hurt and or destroy or hurt our loved ones or us , For us to want them punished?
Paul too was upset with the coppersmith!
What are your thoughts on this subject?

 

[MightyAngel1]

Before we even hit any of the individual items, it must first be pointed out that the evidence for the pre-tribulation rapture is far from overwhelming. If it had been, surely someone would have noticed it before the pre-trib theory was invented in the 1830’s. No early church father, commentary or any other source mentions it before then. The post-trib rapture was the official point of view for the past 2,000 years, and is still the majority opinion throughout the world.

#3 Only those who believe in a pre-trib rapture divide the second coming from the rapture. For 2,000 years they have been taught as the same event.

Howdy MAJ52653!

A Fascinating bit of information you have posted. Do you really want to know why people have taught for nearly 2000 years the Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are the same event?

Here is your answer: They did not know how to read a calendar. They taught, for an example, that Friday and Sunday are the very same day in a 10 day period. This is an impossibility by the way.

In These last days, People who study the Bible know better than that. Yet, There are still those people who will not listen to the Truth of a simple calendar.

Even with the evidence to the contrary of what they believe staring them in the face, They still believe as an example that Friday and Sunday in a 10 day period are the very same day.

These people are stiff-necked to hearing and accepting the Truth of God's Calendar. And, Many claim to be Christ like. Fascinating isn't.

God Bless You!

 

[spirit1st]

ONE very important FACT we ALL must understand!Everything we get From GOD comes By FAITH!

We cannot have salvation or even a relationship with HIm , except by FAITH! we cannot get healed or be a living blessing or really give lOVE without FAITH!

 

[StopPolloition]

I personally don't believe in the pre-trib rapture theory. I can't find any scripture that clearly advocates a pre-trib rapture.
But, there is plenty of evidence that the church will go through the great tribulation, mainly, the Olivet discourse and Revelation.
Why would Jesus tell us about it, if we were all going to be "raptured" before it took place?
In 1900 years of church history, from Stephen to the present day, there have been millions of "Martyrs" What makes us so special, that we would be spared the trials that our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus have, and are still suffering in many countries today?
The church in the west needs a wake up call before the freedom we enjoy to worship and witness openly is taken away,and we find ourselves unprepared to for persecution.

The Olivet Discourse isn't about the Church, it's to the Jews. Secondly the "what makes us so special?" argument is tired and flawed. What makes those present in the Pre-Tribulation rapture is timing. Simple.

God's time for the church age will have ended. The same logic applied to any other dispensational event shows the fallacy of it: What made Abraham so special; why didn't God first make his promise to Isaac? What was so special about Moses that God chose him to lead Israel out? Why not Gershom, his son? Why didn't the time of the Judges end earlier than Samuel, why was he so special? And on and on.

Further, why would David have been made king when so many in Israel suffered even in the reign of Saul? Jesus expressly points out privilege in Matthew 13:16. What made the eyes of the disciples and the nascent church so special that they would be afforded the opportunity of seeing and hearing things that many prophets and righteous men desired to see and hear and didn't? Sorry friend, this is a flawed argument. The modern church DOES endure trials and tribulations and if you don't, it's likely that you're not a part of it. We aren't being fed to lions or dragged out of houses but we are overcoming things that are literally causing people in the world to end their lives. If that isn't tribulation, I don't know what is.

 

[ushalk]

there is no proof or evidence in a pre trib rapture. we read in the gospels where jesus warns all believers of what is going to happen to us during the time of the tribulation. many churches in america have come to the notion that we will never be persecuted or that it is only for the jews. however this is not found in scripture anywhere.

 

[StopPolloition]

One thing that I've noticed is those opposed to the Pre-Trib Rapture are always ready to say what the scripture doesn't say about the rapture but aren't as prepared to say what it does. You, my friend, have the burden of proof; simply denying a fact isn't an argument. Prove your point.

 

[ushalk]

are you to lazy to read the words in red or to scared? these man made doctrines and those of you that have learned from the man rather than the lord always ask for proof rather than going and reading and studying it all out for yurselves. if it is popular by the stand of man it is usually wrong in the sight of god.

 

[greatlybeloved]

Pre-tribulation theory
The problem is no theory gives right answers. The whole pre-tribulation theory came into existence because of Jewish nature of Olivet disclosure. During the tribulation, the Jews are expected to observe Jewish law (like sabbath, etc.,). The observance of Jewish law is no more required (and they're even called "beggarly elements" by Paul in his epistles) in the dispensation of grace (for the body of Christ). THAT got Darby to come up with pre-tribulation theory.

So the basic pre-trib argument is this: If we (the body of Christ) are not to observe Jewish law, and in Mat 24, when the Lord talks about sabbath/temple, etc., during tribulation, then the body of Christ must have been gone by then. Up to this, it is a valid argument. However based on this, they cooked up a whole theory which is full of assumptions. No where are we told that the body of Christ will not go through tribulation (PS: don't confuse "wrath to come" with tribulation, it is the "day of the Lord", NOT tribulation). No where are we told that the "restrainer" means Holy Spirit, no where are we told that the tribulation would be SEVEN years (although Daniel's 70th week is 7 years), and absence of the word "church" in Revelation after chapter 3 does not guarantee that the church is no more in the tribulation. Infact, there are verses in Rev 1 and 2 that some of the 7 churches indeed to through tribulation. And no where do we read that the "rapture" is a SECRET event (they show "like a thief" verses, but if you ask about tribulation during that period, then they say it is "second coming" and not "rapture").

And on top of it, pre-tribbers woven a nice story where the fourth kingdom in Nebuchadnezzar's dream is ROMAN empire!!! Where did they get that from!? And they say Antichrist would come from REVIVED roman empire, I'd like to see where it is written.

This is what happens when you assume things which the Scripture is silent upon.

 

[greatlybeloved]

Post tribulation theory
Post tribbers however need to explain how can they be dogmatic that the body of Christ WILL go through tribulation? If they show Jewish passages, then they have to explain why are they not practicing Jewish law NOW. Because the Lord Jesus clearly indicates that Sabbath will be observed during that time, and temple sacrifices will be going on at that time, and if the passage (Matthew 24, etc.,) apply to both the Jews and the body of Christ equally, then they need to reconcile Paul's doctrine with Matthew 24.

 

[StopPolloition]

Ushalk,

scripture advocates a desire for proof; speaking of the Bereans Luke says in Acts 17:11: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." We're told to try the spirits to prove God even to search the scriptures to see if they're true.

Additionally Jesus while on earth said he had the witness of his Father, the epistles say we have the witness of the Spirit and John says that Father, Word and Holy Ghost bear record and are one and that the Spirit the water and the blood agree in one.

The Bible means NOTHING if it cannot be proven thus God magnified it above his Name. It expressly proves itself and invites men to see this fact for themselves.

Doctrines of men? You haven't read ANY of the Bible if you've not encountered the doctrine of the Rapture and if you've read and it choose not to accept what it says, this of course, is your prerogative. I wont descend to the level of insult like you've done- the thing to do whenever you don't agree with someone is neither to call them lazy or scared - from Enoch to Noah to the very words of our Lord himself, the idea of the catching away of the saints is an integral to the Bible as the doctrine of sin.
Know that I won't address you any further on this topic :shade:, your mind is made up if you stoop to the level of insult. Be blessed. Maranatha.

 

[Boanerges]

Just wondering, for the pre-tribbers what do you think of these verses in Daniel chapters 7 and 11. Are they talking about the anti-Christ?
If so he is making war on the saints which would mean he is here at the same time as them.
If not then who do you think this is?

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
Dan 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
Dan 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
Dan 11:39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
Dan 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
Dan 11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
Dan 11:43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

 

[StopPolloition]

I do think those verses are referring to the antichrist. Let me ask you something, friend, wasn't Enoch a saint? What about Abraham or Moses or Isaiah? It's obvious that these aren't the saints the antichrist will wear out.

It should also be obvious that there are and will be saints who will not be considered the Church, a la Moses et al. There will be people saved after the rapture. I don't believe they will be people to whom the gospel has already been presented.

Nevertheless, the assignment of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists, the two witnesses and the "Gospel Angel" will be to preach to those who have not heard the gospel. I think it's likely that the number of people saved during the tribulation and after the rapture will dwarf the number who'd gone in the rapture. The church age ends with the rapture, a new dispensation begins. In every dispensation-every age, God has had a remnant. There will people a vast remnant in the tribulation. We go through tribulation now, but Jesus was careful to distinguish this from the Great Tribulation.

There is nothing particularly noble about going through the tribulation. What then is the purpose of the Lord saying to the church at Philadelphia that he would save them from the hour of tribulation?

 

[greatlybeloved]

StopPolloition,

A few errors in Post-trib theory will not make pre-trib correct. Any Biblically sound doctrine WILL stand by its own merit (not on the short-comings of the opposing view)

Show me ONE DIRECT verse in the Bible that suggests that we will not go through tribulation. The "examples" like Enoch and Noah will not prove anything.

NOTE: The phrases, "wrath to come", "day of the Lord" are NOT tribulation. I showed clearly from the Scriptures in my previous posts.

God bless!

 

[ChildrenOfLight]

The Lord speaks to the church in the following verses .... first His evaluation of the condition of the church on the earth in Revelation 2 & 3 .... and then His call to immortalize the true believers just before He brings His hour of trial upon an unbelieving world.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />


3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



<o>------------</o>


<o>the hour of temptation... this could mean that even believers will doubt Christ, at something that may occur (which could be satan's epic plot)... i happen to of gotten strung into conspiracy research, as well as fallen-angel/nephilim research, and i happen to believe in a project bluebeam and an alien conspiracy tied in with the nephilim (Gen.6:4) as well. if 'aliens' somehow emerged from underground and above in their ships, many would be diverted from the faith in god, because these fallen ones which genetically mutated themselves will strive to work with man and decieve them with all satan's might.</o>


<o>just one perspective i guess...</o>

 

[Boanerges]

I do think those verses are referring to the antichrist

So in your opinion these two verses are not talking about the Coming of Christ at the end of this age?
(red emphasis mine)
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

I was just wondering. I have heard literally hundreds of views on this but have never really settled that in my mind. I have heard many pre and mid tribbers use the Horn as the anti-Christ.

 

[mattiyahu11]

Luk 17:34 I tell you, two people will be in the same bed that night. One will be taken, and the other will be left behind.
Luk 17:35 Two woman will be grinding grain together. One will be taken, and the other will be left behind."
Luk 17:36 Two people will be in a field. One will be taken, and the other will be left behind.
Luk 17:37 Then they asked him, "Where, Lord, will this take place?" He told them, "Wherever there's a body, there the vultures will gather."

Num 6:24 May the LORD bless you and take care of you;
Num 6:25 May the LORD be kind and gracious to you;
Num 6:26 May the LORD look on you with favor and give you peace.

Amen​

 

[lecoop]

So in your opinion these two verses are not talking about the Coming of Christ at the end of this age?
(red emphasis mine)
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

I was just wondering. I have heard literally hundreds of views on this but have never really settled that in my mind. I have heard many pre and mid tribbers use the Horn as the anti-Christ.

Why did this crazy server just LOSE my post and say I could not post links? The least it could have done is KEPT my post.

Since my original was lost, this will be VERY brief:

OF COURSE Dan 11 at the last few verses is speaking of the antichrist: 12:1 is at the midpoint of the 70th week.

Coop