I don't believe a loving God would send people to hell.....

[TheWordIsOne]

I think about when people say the phrase "I don't believe a loving God would send people to hell".

The Holy Spirit laid on my heart that when people say that, what they are really saying is,

"I believe I should be free to do what every I want to do and I should be free from the
consequences of my actions, and if there is a God of Justice who will hold me accountable for
what I choose to do, then I want nothing with that God."

people have a misconception about what is Hell, religious men made their own Hell, not God, but just to amuse religious men, the Lord contains them in their Hell, and those who follow, this called men or women, who walk in Perdition, their own Hell.
read the book of Enoch, banned books show a truth, remember the truth

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for sharing your possible on the topic, nice discussing it with you. Stay Blessed.
It seems we at least agree on the Stewardship aspect of the chapter, Amen.

You're welcome and thank you!

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for the question.

My understanding is that man is a living soul, the soul being the merger of the spirit and the body.
There is physical death and spiritual death.

Death means separation. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body.
Spiritual death is when our souls are separated from God's presence. It is the soul that
gives our body life, and God gives life to our Spirit.

Genesis 2:7 "
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.'

Dust is the body, the breath of God is the Spirit, living being is the soul.

Body is world consciousness, Spirit is God consciousness, Soul (mind and emotions) is self consciousness.

Think of this analogy of a light bulb.

The light bulb is there, but when electricity flows through it, it gives off light.
The light does not exist absent from the electricity flowing through the physical light bulb.
Similarly our body is dead (in this world) without the spirit. And when the Spirit (electricity-energy) comes into the body (light bulb) , we are aware of ourselves and our soul is present (light which radiates from the light bulb. Just close your eyes and picture that for a moment, and see the metaphor I'm trying to paint, even if you disagree with it, just picture it.

Electricity flows into the lightbulb giving off light.
God's spirit is breathed into man's body making him a living soul.

I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. I would submit that the spirit is God, not man. In Gen 2:7 we see that the breath or spirit of life comes out of God. God breathed it into the man. The word picture here is something of God being put into man. The body, was formed from the dust of the earth. When the breath of God joined the body, man, the two became a living soul. This tells us that a living soul consists of two things, a body and the breath or spirit from God. If we take either of those away, we no longer have a soul.

I would also submit that there is no such thing as spiritual death. That idea isn't found in Scripture. Also, in Scripture we find that death is the cessation of life. I'm not aware of anything that defines death as separation.

 

[B-A-C]

I would also submit that there is no such thing as spiritual death. That idea isn't found in Scripture.

Rom 8:10; If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Eph 2:1; And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2; in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Eph 2:5; even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6; and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Col 2:13; When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

1Tim 5:6; But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

1Pet 3:18; For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

 

[Butch5]

Mat_19:16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
Mat_19:29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.
Mat_25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Mar_10:17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Mar_10:30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
Luk_10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luk_18:18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
Luk_18:30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."
Joh_3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh_3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Joh_4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life."
Joh_5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Joh_5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
Joh_6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."
Joh_6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Joh_6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Joh_6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh_6:68 Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
Joh_10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
Joh_12:50 "I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."
Joh_17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
Joh_17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Act_13:46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
Act_13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Rom_2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Rom_5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Gal_6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
1Ti_1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.
1Ti_6:12 Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
Tit_1:2 in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
Tit_3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1Jn_1:2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
1Jn_2:25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
1Jn_3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn_5:11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jn_5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1Jn_5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Jud_1:21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
41 verses found, 41 matches

Hi B-A-C,

I would have to differ with you on the claim that the whole premise of Christianity is built on the immortal soul. The Bible states plainly that the Father alone has immorality.

13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:13-16 NKJ)


Paul makes it clear that the Father alone has immortality. That should put and end to the whole doctrine of the Immortal Soul. If the soul was immortal then man wouldn't die. All men die whether Christian or not. Thus no man is immortal. Look at Gen 2:7, a soul requires a body. The body is flesh, it dies, it returns to the dust.

I agree that the whole of Christianity is based on the Resurrection. But, even in the Resurrection man's soul isn't immortal in and of itself. It is only immortal because God will continue to give it life. In the beginning Adam was kicked out of the Garden, why?

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(Gen. 3:22-4:1 KJV)

In the beginning Adam had access to eternal life. He could have eaten from the Tree of Life and live forever. The reason he died is that God drove him out of the Garden and that cut off his access to the Tree of Life. Without access to the Tree of Life he eventually died. Paul tells us that now God gives life to all things. So, everything that lives right now, lives because God is giving (present tense) it life. Job tells us that if God retrieved His breath all flesh would die.

I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, (1 Tim. 6:13-14 NKJ)

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

So, Adam had access to eternal life, he lost it. All that live are alive because God keeps them alive. Eventually, all will be resurrected. The wicked will be judged and die again. The righteous will receive "aionios" (eternal) life. The question is, how will they live? Will they themselves be immortal and thus have no need of God? No, they will have eternal life the same way that Adam had access to eternal life. Jesus said,

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

They will eat of the Tree of Life, just like it was supposed to be in the beginning. The tree is in the paradise of God. Paradise here is misleading because the translators have transliterated it instead of translating it. Literally it reads, "which is in the garden of God". A Tree of life in the Garden of God. Sound familiar? Where would Adam get eternal life? In the Garden of God. The garden of God is the garden of Eden.

So, in the end, man is never immortal in and of himself. He is always dependent on God for life. Thus, there is no immortal soul

 

[Butch5]

Rom 8:10; If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Eph 2:1; And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2; in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Eph 2:5; even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6; and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Col 2:13; When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

1Tim 5:6; But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

1Pet 3:18; For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

I don't see spiritual death here. I see the body is dead. I see dead in sin. I see dead in pleasure. I see dead in the flesh. I don't see dead in spirit anywhere

 

[Butch5]

I believe God is just as loving & kind-hearted as the Bible thumpers say He is, and
therein is something to think about because if God is an intelligent, mature adult
(so to speak) who's never petty, nor capricious, nor biased, nor fickle, nor
impulsive, nor unreasonable, and derives no sick kind of pleasure in causing people
harm; then He must be just as stuck with Hell and can't make it go away with any
more ease than we can.

For reasons I have yet to even guess, Hell is unavoidable even for a loving,
omnipotent God because He's obligated to comply with the right thing to do; i.e. Hell
has to be utilized for punishment in order to satisfy a level of absolute justice that
our limited little minds may never be able to fully grasp.

NOTE: The human mind is produced by a three-pound lump of flabby organic tissue;
and not even all three of those pounds are utilized for cognitive functions; plus 60%
of it consists of fat. Is it any mystery then why we're unable to make any sense out of this?
_

But God made that three pound lump of flesh so He could communicate with it.

 

[Br. Bear]

But God made that three pound lump of flesh so He could communicate with it.

and an absolutely mind-boggling body to go with it.....
and with it we can start to appreciate all He has made....

AND....
He made more than one of us, so all together we are able to get the Mind of Christ....
as in, we must love one another, serve one another, weep with those who weep, rejoice with those who rejoice.... and so on....

more to us than a mere brain, much more.


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

I would have to differ with you on the claim that the whole premise of Christianity is built on the immortal soul. The Bible states plainly that the Father alone has immorality.

But I also have given 40 scriptures above that say we can have eternal life. It is my understanding, no one has received this yet, so yes, only God has it right now.

Paul makes it clear that the Father alone has immortality. That should put and end to the whole doctrine of the Immortal Soul. If the soul was immortal then man wouldn't die. All men die whether Christian or not. Thus no man is immortal. Look at Gen 2:7, a soul requires a body. The body is flesh, it dies, it returns to the dust.

No argument here, a soul is a body and a spirit . OK so be it. The body can die, but the spirit doesn't.

So, in the end, man is never immortal in and of himself. He is always dependent on God for life. Thus, there is no immortal soul

Yes we are always dependent on God for everything, even eternal life, no argument there either. But God sustains life here on the earth now... always has since the beginning of creation.
Why would He stop for some reason?

I don't see spiritual death here. I see the body is dead. I see dead in sin. I see dead in pleasure. I see dead in the flesh. I don't see dead in spirit anywhere

Then you missed the first verse I posted. Your body can be dead, but your spirit can be alive. So the opposite can occur. Your body can be alive, but your spirit can be dead.

Rom 8:10; If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

[B-A-C]

in Scripture we find that death is the cessation of life

and yet...

1Pet 3:18; For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Rom 8:10; If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The flesh (body) can be dead, but the spirit can be alive. You can even be dead, while you are alive. What does that mean to you?

1Tim 5:6; But she who gives herself to wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives.

 

[rstrats]

B-A-C,
re: " No argument here, a soul is a body and a spirit . OK so be it. The body can die, but the spirit doesn't."

And then, as Ecclesiastes says, the spirit is returned to Him who gave it in the first place.

 

[B-A-C]

And then, as Ecclesiastes says, the spirit is returned to Him who gave it in the first place.

It doesn't say it dies when it returns.

1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[rstrats]

It doesn't say it dies when it returns.

That is correct. It doesn't say one way or the other - unless it's a given that the spirit can't die. Nor does it say the spirits of both the theist and the atheist will be returned.

 

[B-A-C]

That is correct. It doesn't say one way or the other - unless it's a given that the spirit can't die. Nor does it say the spirits of both the theist and the atheist will be returned.

Not in those specific verses, but it does in others.

John 5:28; “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Notice both the saved and unsaved come back to life. The only difference it was happens after they come back to life.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Nor does it say the spirits of both the theist and the atheist will be returned

I'm what you would call a fundamentalist, everything in the Bible applies to everyone, unless it specifically states differently.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The unsaved come back to life in a manner of speaking.

 

[B-A-C]

[deleted]

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Not in those specific verses, but it does in others.

John 5:28; “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Notice both the saved and unsaved come back to life. The only difference it was happens after they come back to life.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.



I'm what you would call a fundamentalist, everything in the Bible applies to everyone, unless it specifically states differently.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The unsaved come back to life in a manner of speaking.

Amen, I like your point earlier about if there is no resurrection, than there is no Christianity.

You hit the nail on the head. For me that just says it all. Very very very very clear.

 

[Butch5]

Amen, I like your point earlier about if there is no resurrection, than there is no Christianity.

You hit the nail on the head. For me that just says it all. Very very very very clear.

I agree. However, the Immortal Soul doctrine makes the Resurrection a moot point. If man is a being that can live apart from the body and will be in Heaven, what need is there for the body or a resurrection of the body? In the Immortal Soul doctrine the body is just extra baggage. It's not who the man is and is not necessary for his life. So, what's the point? Why bother to resurrect it at all?

However, if as I suppose, man is a physical flesh being then his only hope is the Resurrection. Apart from that he perishes. So, in the Immortal Soul doctrine the body serves no real purpose, thus the Resurrection isn't really important. However, in the Conditional Immortality view, which I hold, the Resurrection of the body is everything. It's mans only hope.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I agree. However, the Immortal Soul doctrine makes the Resurrection a moot point. If man is a being that can live apart from the body and will be in Heaven, what need is there for the body or a resurrection of the body? In the Immortal Soul doctrine the body is just extra baggage. It's not who the man is and is not necessary for his life. So, what's the point? Why bother to resurrect it at all?

However, if as I suppose, man is a physical flesh being then his only hope is the Resurrection. Apart from that he perishes. So, in the Immortal Soul doctrine the body serves no real purpose, thus the Resurrection isn't really important. However, in the Conditional Immortality view, which I hold, the Resurrection of the body is everything. It's mans only hope.

You asked what is the point of the body?

To interact with the physical world.

Spirit = God consciousness
Soul = Self Consciousness (feelings and emotions)
Body = World Consciousness (5 senses)

Remember we are getting new bodies which will be incorruptible.
We were made very good, but sin marred our very good bodies.

We will receive new bodies which cannot be corrupted.

God could have designed us to not have bodies and just be like wandering spirits,
but in God's wisdom, God chose to design us this way. Perhaps to showcase
His handiwork as we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

Who knows, maybe God is an artist and likes to create beautiful things, and wanted
to create beautiful bodies for us. Unfortunately we often don't take good care of these gifts(bodies) from God.

 

[Beetow]

Why bother to resurrect it at all?

Well; it would be nigh unto impossible to join Christ for a traditional Passover
without a body capable of dining upon ordinary foods and beverages.

• Matt 26:29 . . I tell you: I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until
that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

• Luke 22:15-16 . . I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I
suffer. For I tell you: I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of
God.

• Luke 22:28-30 . . However, you are the ones that have stuck with me in my
trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant
with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom
_

 

[Reba1]

Free will choices send folks to hell .