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No one goes to heaven!

I have read the bible enough to know this is not true. What passages of scripture teach this?

People today go to Heaven or Hades when they die. Those in both, keep their memories.



Incorrect. What scripture are you quoting?



The 144 000 are 12 000 Jews from 12 tribes. Sealed and protected. They will preach during the tribulation.

The passage on the 144 000 is in Revelations 7 and 14. When you cross examine common theories you find that there are holes the size of craters in most. The line above is the only line that passes interrogation.

For example, your claim of them being 144 000 true Christians that will reign during the millennium.

1. Rev 7 is crystal clear that the 144 000 will be Jews. It even gives the names of the tribes.
2. The context of Rev 7 and 14 is during the great tribulation. Not the millennium.
3. How is it that only Jews can be Christians when Jesus included the gentiles?
4. If God foreknows that only 12 000 from 12 tribes will be saved, that would imply partiality. People cherry picked for heaven. AKA implying God is wicked when scripture is crystal clear that He is not.

Now I know this is a JW belief and I am sure you are one. As such you believe you need to work hard to be one of them. This belief opens up so many questions. Questions that cannot actually be answered by JW's without terribly incriminating God. The moment your belief hits a wall and can only but incriminate God, you know that you have a hole in your belief system that is the size of a crater. As God is 100% righteous in ALL His ways Psalm 145:17.

If you want to discuss further or for me to explain what I mean on JW specifically, just ask, I don't want to jump the gun if you are not up for discussion.



Please quote scriptures. This is not what the bible teaches.
You really need to try understand what the Bible says.
The dead are in their graves.
The do not go to heaven or anywhere as all thoughts perish.
The 144,000 includes 120,000 of The Ten Lost Tribes who left Samaria and ended up in Europe, England and America.
Many of these 120,000 are nominally Catholic at present but will renounce it and become Christian in the Last Days.
And don't label me as a JW as that is a lie
 
(If I may be so bold....)

(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.​
KingJ is one of those with scales over his eyes.
 
This verse is a popular quote from annihilationist's. Are you one?

If you are you will take that line literally. If you are not, you will not. If you read the context and do a study on the passage, you will see that there is something more to the speech style. It's a 'chiastic structure' (had to google that).

Every verse mentioning eternal punishment debunks taking it literally. Then we have teaching from Jesus in Luke 16 of the rich man in fire asking Abraham to warn his family and friends. IE He still has his memories. Some believe we all lose our memories, but Rev 6:10 shows those in heaven don't and Luke 16 those in Hades.
LOL! The rich man asking Abraham is a metaphor!
and oh my! Rev 6:10 is a vison of the future! 6:8 talks of the pale horse is also a metaphor! 'And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.'
You say you have read the Bible and maybe you have but you sure lack the gifts of wisdom, knowledge and discernment of 1 Corinthians 12.
 
The only death I'm aware of is a spiritual death, i.e. sin. Sure, your physical body will wear out and it will go, but the real you will persist. When God created you, at that point, you exist, no different than God exists. The question is... Is where will you exist once the flesh is gone.

The 144,000 people are the 12 tribes of Israel, 12,000 each tribe who are saved during the end times.

A bit of history here:

So, Joshua is tired of fighting. He doesn't complete God's prime directive, wipe out the Canaanites. He dismantles the Canaanites as a functioning society but leaves enclaves of people and giants. These Canaanites later become the Phoenicians. Next King Solomon takes over. For a wise man, he engages in much foolishness, such as learning sorcery, creating division among the 12 tribes, and eventually becoming a tyrant. During Solomon's reign tribes Judah and Benjamin move to the south of the region. Solomon invests a great deal of time, energy and money in this region building up his legacy. This is done at the expense of the North Region, with slave labor and heavy taxation. When Solomon dies, his son takes over. He's just as bad as his father. The 10 tribes in the north plead with him to change policy and lighten up. Instead, Solomon's son doubles down and demands even more from the north. This in turn causes a split from the tribes where the Northern Kingdom establishes its independence, and the Southern Kingdom (Judah and Benajmin) continues in the splendor of Solomon's legacy.

Later the Assyrians invade the Northern Kingdom. The outcome is that the Assyrians won by conquest. However, the whereabouts of the 10 tribes is unknown. Did they flee? Were they all killed? Where they conquered and the eventually assimilated? So, the 10 tribes of the North are out of the picture, gone!

Later again, the Babylonians invade the south. They are merciful compared the Assyrians. Instead of scorch earth warfare, the Babylonians take tribes Judah and Benajmin as slaves back to Babylon. It is here over time that Talmud is authored into two version: Babylonian and Jewish. Eventually tribes Judah and Benajmin are able to leave Babylon and return back to the Southern Region where they came from. When they arrive, they discover that their cousins, the Edomites have successfully occupied the region and developed quite a civilization. This causes both conflict and opportunities for cooperation. Tribe Judah somehow manages to convince the Edomites to convert to Judaism. However, over time the Edomites remained the dominate culture and tribes Judah and Benjamin were assimilated (or "faded away" metaphorically). In the 21st century the people that live and populate the country Israel are not from the tribes of Judah or Benajmin (or the other 10 tribes). They are Edomites. Their ancestors converted to Judaism.

At this point in time the 12 tribes are "missing in action". That is until the end times where the people, whoever they are and wherever they are, realize their true identity and repent. When they repent the 12 tribes return back into the scene where God saves them. They are the 144,000.

These 144,000 are not the only people saved. You have countless millions of people prior to the end times who accepted by faith that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior. These people will go to heaven. It's God's promise. God never fails on his promise.
In fact we know exactly where the Ten Lost TRibes went - to Northrn Europe with Ephraim and Manasseh's tribes coming to Northern England where Ephraim is planted not to be moved while Manasseh set off for America.
It's all in scripture but you have to have the gift of holy spirit to discern it!
 
The JW's I've talked to claim the 144,000 in Rev. 7, which are Jews, are not the same 144,000 of Rev. 14, which are JW's.

How these folks can believe this is bewildering!
JWs worship Baal and naturally twist the scriptures.
Look how often they include images of Baal in their magazine pictures.
They also ban the wearing of crosses and refuse to enter Christian churches.
The reason for the ban is that they like the Canaanites and other had stakes beside the altars and Molochs in which they burned thier babies.
 
There's an issue here. John wrote that about 60 years after Jesus resurrected. So, 60 years after the Resurrection still no one had gone into Heaven. That means the apostles didn't go there.

Everything works out fine if we jettison the Immortal Soul doctrine.
Immortal soul is directly from Babylonian occult teachings led by Satan and Gang.
 
Butch, if I may add....

Koine Greek doesn't have "tenses" per say, as much as Aktionsart inflections.

It's a long read (or complex one) but I offer this article for consideration.

"The perfect form (of a) verb’s paradigm communicates the situation or state that persists following (its) process (action). The perfect’s connection to the prior event is relational rather than textual."​

In addition:

The Perfect Tense ... of verbs in Koine Greek ... is usually used to show that a past event has occurred with present ongoing consequences.​

I happen to find it a bit sleight of hand when they translate a Perfect Aspect ("tense") with English past tense endings, but this might be seen as a deficiency in English, which is unable to express the dual nature of "Terminative" and "Resulting State."

και (AND) ουδεις (NO ONE) αναβεβηκεν (HAS GONE UP & IS ASCENDED) εις (INTO) τον (THE) ουρανον (HEAVEN) ει (IF) μη (NOT) ο (THE one) εκ (OUT) του (OF) ουρανου (HEAVEN) καταβας (DESCENDING) - ο (THE) υιος (SON) του (OF) ανθρωπου (MAN)​

And no one is ascended into heaven ... if not descending out of heaven - The Son of Man.​

I think the purpose of this verse is to declare that if the Son of Man hasn't descended out of heaven, then no one is in (has ascended) heaven.

Then again, it might just be saying that the only ones to ascend into heaven are those having descended from heaven (e.g. angels) including the Son of Man.

Kindly,
Rhema
Saying humans had ascended to heaven before Jesus himself is calling Jesus a liar!
 
Where Jesus is, is heaven.

If Jesus went to hell and was given the power to run it, hell would be heaven. If the devil went to heaven and was given the power to run it, it would be hell.

There are some who propose that we saints will be bound to Earth in the new Jerusalem. This is an error of assumption. Just because scripture says we reign with Jesus on earth during the millennium and thereafter live in the new Jerusalem does not in any way shape or form equate to Jesus stopping us from traveling to the Moon, Mars or wherever else we desire to go. If God did not want us to travel to other planets, we would not be able to do so now. We will most certainly have more liberty, time and brainpower in the hereafter. Scripture is all we need to know. Not all there is to know.

I always wonder what motivates people to make ''statements of fact'' off of ''cherry picked'' verses about the vastly unknown future. There is always an agenda. Sounds like statements the devil will make to make people despondent of the hereafter with Jesus.
Well I'm sure Satan is delighted with your sheeps clothing but in fact WHEN Satan went to heaven it was still heaven.
Here I'll quote the verse: Job 1:6 ‘Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.’'
And as for pompously calling yourself a saint - I'm sure you'll have a great shock on Judgment Day!
Stop taking ''cherry picked'' verses about the vastly unknown future.
 
God doesn't need my help to determine the identity of His chosen people. The Scripture is filled with prophecy concerning these chosen people.

When God told Abraham "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you," that was enough for Charlie to stay out of God's business and let Him take care of it.

There is no reason for us to look at the nation of Israel as anything other than God's chosen. They are the enemies of the Gospel, as Paul said, but at the same time the recipients of the promises God made to their father's Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
It was the two tribes of the Jews that were and still are the enemies of the Gospel!
 
The reason some of you guys are struggling with these passages is based on your holding of the Immortal Soul doctrine. It's causing you to misinterpret passages. If you rid yourself of the doctrine many of these issues go away.
Nimrod or Satan dreamed up the immortal soul idea at Babylon.
 
I never said there was, but it would seem that you think God keeps track of all the individual atoms of a corpse over thousands and thousands of years in order put the physical body back together.

So a fisherman dies at sea, having fallen in and drowned. Then fish come and eat his remains. The fish are later caught and eaten by others. Who then at the Resurrection has pieces of his body missing?

And those who drowned at the Titanic. Nothing of the corpses remain, not even bones, just the remnants of their clothing, and this only a bit after one hundred years. It just seems a bit weird (a bit of a stretch even) that God would somehow need to send angels after each and every atom of each and every corpse that has died since creation.

So yes, there is nothing left, which is why God gives new bodies to those whom he resurrects.

Rhema
GOD knows the DNA of each individual and will replicate it as He sees fit.
 
LOL! The rich man asking Abraham is a metaphor!

:):)

I would think its wise to be extra terrified of misrepresenting the actual words of Jesus.

Luke 16 is quite a long and detailed account of an interaction between Abraham and the rich man. Very far from a metaphor.

You are choosing what to believe in and then completely twisting conflicting scripture to fit in with your narrative.

and oh my! Rev 6:10 is a vison of the future!

Correct. A passage spoken by saints in heaven. Very upset with the way they died.

Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?

6:8 talks of the pale horse is also a metaphor! 'And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.'You say you have read the Bible and maybe you have but you sure lack the gifts of wisdom, knowledge and discernment of 1 Corinthians 12.

Verse 8 and 10 are very different verses with different meanings. Not sure what you are trying to achieve.

You say you have read the Bible and maybe you have but you sure lack the gifts of wisdom, knowledge and discernment of 1 Corinthians 12.

Well I do have the experience and knowledge to know that when a stranger as yourself is so quick to be offended and pass personal insults, they are insecure and defending a pet theory of theirs.
 
It seems to me that God does chase down the atoms/molecules of the dead, wherever they may be.

In Rev. 20:11-15, the dead are raised and stand before God at the Great White Throne of Judgment.

Rev. 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

I think those atoms/molecules of the dead are indeed chased down and put back together.
Not so. I can't know but it is possible there may have been some Christians whose every atom was totally obliterated in atom bomb explosions.
Just as we all carry a good mental picture of our long dead relatives I'm sure GOD can picture every sparrow that falls ...
 
No need to be snide about it.

Most all Christians believe themselves to be compassionate, and yet manage to weaponize scripture against others on a personal basis (as opposed to personal or theological).

Rhema
Rhema comes across as a Jewish woman.
 
:):)

I would think its wise to be extra terrified of misrepresenting the actual words of Jesus.

Luke 16 is quite a long and detailed account of an interaction between Abraham and the rich man. Very far from a metaphor.

You are choosing what to believe in and then completely twisting conflicting scripture to fit in with your narrative.



Correct. A passage spoken by saints in heaven. Very upset with the way they died.

Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?



Verse 8 and 10 are very different verses with different meanings. Not sure what you are trying to achieve.



Well I do have the experience and knowledge to know that when a stranger as yourself is so quick to be offended and pass personal insults, they are insecure and defending a pet theory of theirs.
What a childish mind you have to take Abraham and the rich man as literal when it is obviously a parable on several points!
Your sentence: 'Well I do have the experience and knowledge to know that when a stranger as yourself is so quick to be offended and pass personal insults, they are insecure and defending a pet theory of theirs.' is so pompously foolish it is a disgrace on a Christian forum but Satan loves you.
 
:):)

I would think its wise to be extra terrified of misrepresenting the actual words of Jesus.

Luke 16 is quite a long and detailed account of an interaction between Abraham and the rich man. Very far from a metaphor.

You are choosing what to believe in and then completely twisting conflicting scripture to fit in with your narrative.



Correct. A passage spoken by saints in heaven. Very upset with the way they died.

Rev 6:10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?



Verse 8 and 10 are very different verses with different meanings. Not sure what you are trying to achieve.



Well I do have the experience and knowledge to know that when a stranger as yourself is so quick to be offended and pass personal insults, they are insecure and defending a pet theory of theirs.
Like most narcissists you hate to be corrected and shown to be wrong. Seek wisdom, grasshopper?
 
Just because I believe the Bible does not make me a devilworshipping JW.
You really need to grow up!
Dear Rxlx,
All you had to say was no.

Plus, it would have been enlightening if you had addressed the rest of what I wrote to you instead of just the above. :)

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><
 
I think the resuurected will get a fairly identical body to what they had in their prime - because Jesus said every hair on our heads is counted - which these days we can take to mean that our individual DNA is known to GOD and can be replicated as we get new bodies as we get out of the grave, the dust, the seas etc.
Logically of course all our DNA traces right back to Adam and Eve and as GOD created it we can assume He'll know what each of us should have.
My sister has gotten deep into ancestor tracing and keeps telling me we are related to people 3-4-500 years ago and she gets texts from people saying they are our really distant relatives.
She is quite convinced now that we are all descended from Adam and Eve
Yeah! It's funny how science keeps proving the Bible is correct.
 
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