On The Trinity

[Travis]

All devils believe and fear God, they deny the Father and Son part and it was Jesus Christ the Son that came in the flesh.

Matthew 8
28 And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. 29 And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"​

These demons seemed to acknowledge the Father and the Son?

 

[WaterRock]

Are you Jehovah Witness?

Not sure the reason for your inquiry except maybe to infer that Jehovah Witnesses are somehow inferior to your religious beliefs; in such, it is therefore a line of questioning that
I have no interest in pursuing or participating in.

 

[Travis]

Not sure the reason for your inquiry except maybe to infer that Jehovah Witnesses are somehow inferior to your religious beliefs; in such, it is therefore a line of questioning that
I have no interest in pursuing or participating in.

Hmmm... Well,

I can't help but feel the need to say that I do believe Jehovah's Witnesses are indeed inferior to my religious beliefs, in that they choose to believe a lie and not the truth.

John 5
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.​

I'm not better than Jehovah's Witnesses in and of myself. The gospel call is open to all, it is open to Jehovah's Witnesses as well. But one cannot serve two masters, one would have to forsake being a Jehovah's Witness to serve the True and Living God. One cannot be a believer in Christ and Muslim at the same time, nor a believer and a Hindu at the same time. Same with being a JW.

Blessings!

Travis

 

[Byfaith]

Matthew 8
28 And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. 29 And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?"​

These demons seemed to acknowledge the Father and the Son?

They know the Son, but Deny his authority. It's the Anti-Messiah or Anti-anointing that denies the father and Son. Will not confess Jesus the anointed one (Christ) came in the flesh. Devils would be more than happy to say there is one God, they believe that already, Hate what the Other one did and defeated all powers of hell.

Blessings.

 

[WaterRock]

I can't help but feel the need to say that I do believe Jehovah's Witnesses are indeed inferior to my religious beliefs, in that they choose to believe a lie and not the truth.

Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 5

So I take it that the precept that all men are created equal would be one that would be inferior [or lie] as well since, as you said you don't go outside of the scriptures to seek God?

By the scripture cited are you saying that you have heard his voice? and seen his shape? Or that nobody has?

 

[Travis]

So I take it that the precept that all men are created equal would be one that would be inferior [or lie] as well since, as you said you don't go outside of the scriptures to seek God?

By the scripture cited are you saying that you have heard his voice? and seen his shape? Or that nobody has?

Any man or woman can accept the gospel call, it is open to anyone. All who reject Christ will perish eternally under the wrath of God.

This is their choice.

 

[RJ]

Not sure the reason for your inquiry except maybe to infer that Jehovah Witnesses are somehow inferior to your religious beliefs; in such, it is therefore a line of questioning that
I have no interest in pursuing or participating in.

I don't see how you inferred all that of out of a simple question...Are you a Jehovah Witness ?
I guess I got my answer!

 

[Byfaith]

I don't see how you inferred all that of out of a simple question...Are you a Jehovah Witness ?
I guess I got my answer!

When bringing the question of the Trinity to the table, the JW's make some very good observations. John chapter one always gets beat up by Modalist and Oneness types, true trinitarians don't mess with it as it was never mentioned when forming the doctrine.

Paul makes this statement:

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(1Co 8:5-6)

Paul's statement is that there are many gods in heaven and many lords. Paul went on to say but to us, there is Only One God the Father, just One and...................... the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Jud 1:4)

We see it again and again, there is Only One Lord God, one Father, One savoir, One creator but that God also had a Son whom he sent.

I really can't fault them as they do have scriptures. Scripture trumps any doctrine.

Where it falls apart at is that JW's also believe Jesus is none other than Michael a Arch Angel.

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
(Heb 1:4-7)

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
(Heb 1:8)

The Father is not calling his son an angel, never said to any angel you are my son, not one, and never called any angel God.... Jesus, God the Son.

God has never given any Glory to any angel.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(Joh 17:5)

JW's point out Michael has Angels under him and Jesus is mentioned having angels. (Rev 12:7) So they conclude that there can't be two legions with two leaders, must be the same leader, Michael. What they don't get is that everything ever created was for, through, because of the Son of God, even the Worlds were made for Him. Even the rocks on the earth are under Jesus all predestined to be in Him. This don't mean Michael can't be in charge of some things, but Michael still answers to the Son of God.

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
(1Pe 3:22)
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
(Heb 1:2)

because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
(Col 1:16) YLT

Just looking for something to do.......................... Blessing to everyone.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

While I understand that some do and some don't accept and/or believe a version of 'the trinity', it is lacking at least one more person.

This is as Scripturally correct, if not more so provable, than both sides /all sides of the tree.
Sometimes it is not the answer being wrong but the question that needs to be asked has not been.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou Me?

Matthew 25:45 Then shall He answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to Me.

Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

A beloved brother wrote a song and I tend to agree with what he sang, so I will say it here, from me :
I'm a witness for Jehovah and a roaming catholic too .

Bless you ....><>

 

[norapture]

[QUOTE="Byfaith, post: 257079,

(-------Keep in mind the Modern Trinity doctrine states there is only ONE GOD, the original did not but stated Jesus is God, as is His Father making 2. That is the issue I have with the Modern Doctrine because if after doing the Math you come up with just 1, then someone is left out. That is my issue with the Doctrine as the Antichrist denies Father and Son, the combination of them two.----)



Byfaith are you saying there is two Gods ? Or maybe I'm misunderstood this.

 

[RJ]

Not sure the reason for your inquiry except maybe to infer that Jehovah Witnesses are somehow inferior to your religious beliefs; in such, it is therefore a line of questioning that
I have no interest in pursuing or participating in.

Well, you definitely have your own stance on the existence of the Trinity and I was wondering where you get your theology from, that's all. Since you won't answer the other question, will you answer are there others that believe as you do and what church do you go to?

 

[Byfaith]

[QUOTE="Byfaith, post: 257079,

(-------Keep in mind the Modern Trinity doctrine states there is only ONE GOD, the original did not but stated Jesus is God, as is His Father making 2. That is the issue I have with the Modern Doctrine because if after doing the Math you come up with just 1, then someone is left out. That is my issue with the Doctrine as the Antichrist denies Father and Son, the combination of them two.----)



Byfaith are you saying there is two Gods ? Or maybe I'm misunderstood this.

What I was saying is that the Modern Trinity doctrine makes 3 to be co-equal to the only One Lord God. There is only One Lord God, none like him before and none coming like him after. Trinity claims there are two more like him when God said there are not.


Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
(Isa 43:10-11)

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
(Isa 45:5)


Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
(Isa 45:21)

Modern Trinity claims there are a couple extra's that are besides the Only Lord God making 3. Modern Trinity attempts to keep it's ONE GOD idea without making the other two they added to be co-equal. Rome never cared much about scriptures when it came to making up doctrines, so it's expected.

There is only One Lord God, One Savior, none like Him. The God of Israel, the Creator. He does not share that title with nobody, and there is nobody exactly like Him. He is the one that promised to send his son, He is the one that crucified His son for us. It was his plan, his purpose.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(Isa 53:10)
Act_13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

So, like the original Trinity doctrine stated, there are two, both of the same substance.

Paul said it best.
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
(1Co 8:6)

Paul said what God said, there is One God, but that does not mean there is not a One Lord Jesus Christ. Since the Father called his Son God also, then that makes two.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
(Heb 1:8)

According to scripture, that makes two, Jesus the head of all things by which all things consist in Him.

Be blessed.

 

[king1]

The Son of God is always Jesus Christ, how ever Jesus Christ was sent by his Father. When Jesus speaks his Words are Spirit and they are life. If you believe on the Son you are also believing on the one that sent him.
The Father has determined though that there is no other name given whereby man can be saved except Jesus Christ.

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I have to ask do we read and quote parts of god or the fullness of the truth with is the Holy Trinity which is the Father, The Son and The HolySpirt. 3 seperate but 1 at the sametime. As mere mortals we don't understand this cause we think in human way not in the ways of God. Now is this his will that you have divisions among you.
Now to look for real world Look at how this can I have actualy found a referance to "3 seperate but 1 at the sametime" In a book which
shows the walk of devout Muslim to Christianity. Here is the Quote "
The professor was teaching rarefied science, describing the subatomic world. At that level, things happen that make no sense to those of us who conceptualize the world at only a human level. Even the apparently simple idea of atoms is baffling when we think about it. It means that the chair I am sitting on is not actually a solid object, innocently supporting my weight. It is almost entirely empty space, occupied only in small part by particles moving at incomprehensible speeds. When we think about it, it seems wrong, but it’s just the way things are in our universe. There’s no use arguing about it.
I turned my glance away from the other students, concluding they had not blindly accepted a nonsensical concept. They had just realized before I did that there were truths about our universe that do not fit easily into our minds.
My eyes rested on the three separate structures of nitrate on the wall, my mind assembling the pieces. One molecule of nitrate is all three resonance structures all the time and never just one of them. The three are separate but all the same, and they are one. They are three in one.

That’s when it clicked: if there are things in this world that can be three in one, 3even incomprehensibly, so then why cannot God?”

Excerpt taken from, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus by Nabeel Qureshi. (Page 195-96).
Nabeel is a speaker with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries.

 

[RJ]

What I was saying is that the Modern Trinity doctrine makes 3 to be co-equal to the only One Lord God. There is only One Lord God, none like him before and none coming like him after. Trinity claims there are two more like him when God said there are not.


Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Sorry, no offense intended but these two statements seem ambiguous.First your statement is about there being only one lord God. The, you say God id Lord and savior and yet othe scriptures imply Jesus is Lord and Savior?

 

[king1]

Please, with curtsey and respect, that was not my question.
@WaterRock you said:
Not really, it's a doctrine fabricated by the Catholic Church that the reprobates eat up because without faith anything is possible.

• You posted it, so please, Who are you calling a reprobate?

Why do you want division. Is the

You posted that that I made the following quote but then turn around and said the Trinity Doctrine was a Catholic doctrine, I never said it was good or bad, just unprincipled.

let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Even if you don't agree with your brother in Christ. Do not let your Disagreement turn to hate that would be a foothold for the devil.
Love and Truth, but first be honest with yourself you posted "it's a doctrine fabricated by the Catholic Church that the reprobates eat up because without faith anything is possible"
I am Catholic and I love all my Brothers even Athiests and pray for them and you cause we must go by his will be done but the world even in matters of faith tries to make it Our will be done.
I am included in this and ask God daily to help me keep my will out of this.

 

[Curtis]

I have to ask do we read and quote parts of god or the fullness of the truth with is the Holy Trinity which is the Father, The Son and The HolySpirt. 3 seperate but 1 at the sametime. As mere mortals we don't understand this cause we think in human way not in the ways of God. Now is this his will that you have divisions among you.
Now to look for real world Look at how this can I have actualy found a referance to "3 seperate but 1 at the sametime" In a book which
shows the walk of devout Muslim to Christianity. Here is the Quote "
The professor was teaching rarefied science, describing the subatomic world. At that level, things happen that make no sense to those of us who conceptualize the world at only a human level. Even the apparently simple idea of atoms is baffling when we think about it. It means that the chair I am sitting on is not actually a solid object, innocently supporting my weight. It is almost entirely empty space, occupied only in small part by particles moving at incomprehensible speeds. When we think about it, it seems wrong, but it’s just the way things are in our universe. There’s no use arguing about it.
I turned my glance away from the other students, concluding they had not blindly accepted a nonsensical concept. They had just realized before I did that there were truths about our universe that do not fit easily into our minds.
My eyes rested on the three separate structures of nitrate on the wall, my mind assembling the pieces. One molecule of nitrate is all three resonance structures all the time and never just one of them. The three are separate but all the same, and they are one. They are three in one.

That’s when it clicked: if there are things in this world that can be three in one, 3even incomprehensibly, so then why cannot God?”

Excerpt taken from, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus by Nabeel Qureshi. (Page 195-96).
Nabeel is a speaker with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries.

The closest you are going to get to understanding God being one, is by looking at your self. Man is spirit, soul, and body, yet he is one man. Jesus is the expressed image of God. Contained within Jesus Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[RJ]

Why do you want division.

Why would you think I want division?

 

[Byfaith]

Sorry, no offense intended but these two statements seem ambiguous.First your statement is about there being only one lord God. The, you say God id Lord and savior and yet othe scriptures imply Jesus is Lord and Savior?

No offense, when we get to talking about Trinity, Oneness, symbolism, and modalism which all seem similar it can't get very complicated.

The Lord God said He is Savior, there is no other. There is only ONE LORD GOD.

Then we have scriptures like these.................

Php_3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

1Ti_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

One, Paul says Jesus is our Saviour and the other Paul says God is our Savior and Jesus is our Hope.

Here, God keeps his promise to send his son as Saviour

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
(Act 13:33)

It was Jesus Christ, God the Son that came in the Flesh.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
(1Jn 4:2)

Jesus was sent and crucified by the Father. It was the Lord God's plan, purpose and spoken Word that brought His son into the World.

Jesus affirms it was His fathers plan at the end saying "not my will be done, your will." So, it was the father's plan from start, and Jesus was obedient unto death.

So, it was the Fathers plan to send his son by whom He gave glory to before the earth was even formed, God made all things for and because of his son, all things designed to be predestined to be in the Son of God who has always been with the Father.

That is what scriptures says, there are two.......... Father and Son, our family our God's as Paul said to us there are Two, the Lord God, and Lord Jesus Christ. One by whom all things were made, One by whom all things consist.

I can't defend a Roman Catholic Creed, I only stick with scriptures. Someone will have to take it up with Rome if they think Rome messed something up.

Blessings Brother, great talking with you. If someone wants to believe in Trinity, Oneness, modalist, whatever, let them have at that, fine with me. Though I fail, I do my best to stick with scriptures the best I can as the Holy Spirit shows me.

 

[RJ]

Blessings Brother, great talking with you. If someone wants to believe in Trinity, Oneness, modalist, whatever, let them have at that, fine with me. Though I fail, I do my best to stick with scriptures the best I can as the Holy Spirit shows me.

Let me get this straight, your saying Jesus is not the Lord and Savior?