On The Trinity
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RJ
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Thanks, no apologies needed!:laugh:
So True curtis.
The maker of Man and the maker of the "subatomic world" One in the same. The maker of all Big (Universe) and Small(the subatomic world) just science is, eventhough most wont admit, is bearly catching on.
Yes I made the above quote because in me is no reason I am and I stand stand upon the principle upon which it is founded upon. Just as the principle of 12 hours in the day, If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him. And if you say you are a Catholic, then do as the Pope tells you and I will do as the Holy Ghost tells me. As George Washington said, "few men have the virtue to the highest bidder." As Paul said " Ye are bought with a price;" 1 Cor 7:23 [Note-Better to give than receive]
Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.1 Cor 7:24
I trust you were called, since Jesus came to call not the righteous but the sinners to repentance. By faith I believe all things are possible, knowing the principle of possibilities then I have to acknowledge that it is possible that all things are not possible with God, because all things are possible with the eternal God. Not that anything is possible because it is impossible for man to obtain faith by his own except it be a gift of God, if you disagree please feel free to tell me why you believe I am in error.
According to the Catholic Doctrine it is not possible to give the names of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost but the scriptures that tells the Church in Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Check out what the dogma states.
The Phasma Divinus and Spiritus Divinus are not the same. There are seven Spiritius Divinus but only one Phasma Divinius.
I guess I am posting far to many scriptures and we are not taking time to read things very carefully. I never mentioned any of that. Scripture says Jesus is Lord Kurios. and Jesus is Savior.
One more time.... There is only ONE LORD GOD, One Savior. That is scripture.
Jesus is referred to as "OUR" Lord and Savior. It's through Jesus, "OUR" Lord we have access to the Father and Jesus is the Father of Eternity or eternal life through Him.
It is mentioned twice in the NT, One Lord God, One Lord Jesus Christ.
Only One Lord God, that is it.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord (Despotes) God, and our Lord (Kurios) Jesus Christ.
(Jud 1:4)
Here in Jud 1:4 together, the Only Lord God gets called Despotes as Compared to Jesus being Lord Kurios. Two different types of Lords, because compared to His Father Jesus is not the Lord God, but the Son and Jesus never gets the Title His Father Has.
Despotes means Ruler or owner of all things.
Kurios Means Ruler over someones things.
I am not sure how to make things more clear at this point. If there was no Roman Catholic Doctrine in the way and we never heard of some form or version of Trinity, I am sure the scriptures I gave would make complete sense.
There is a Father, the Only Lord God, there is a Son, the Lord Jesus Christ (Anointed One) It's really not that complicated, both have been here before the foundation of the World. The Father sent His son.
Anyway, have to get ready for church. Be blessed.
RJ
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No, it is not complicated:
- Romans 10:8 -13
8 But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach);
9 because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
11 The scripture says, "No one who believes in him will be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and bestows his riches upon all who call upon him.
13 For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved." - John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jesus is the word, the word is God, Jesus is God
- Luke 2:11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. -
- Titus 2:11 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus
- Philippians 3:20 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus
- 2 Timothy 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
Not really, they would be four. The three form the one which has to be the fourth. Because if you see the three, you don't see the fourth. And by seeing the fourth you know the three are not one.
One is one. In this world and the world to come. One water molecule contains two hydrogen particles and one oxygen particle. The hydrogen particle is not a water molecule nor is the oxygen particle, . These three particles do not occupy the same space at the same time,
Greetings,
Someone once explained the 3 in 1like this :
consider a candle (or lamp).
When burning (alight) there are three, namely the flame which may be likened to The LORD GOD, the illuminating light that is which is deemed light which may be likened to The Son Who is Christ and the unseen between the flame (fire) and the light (or evidence of that light, being clearly seen upon all that it sheds its light upon) which may be likened to The Holy Ghost.
All are needful as to remove one (not that it is possible) would render darkness.
The candle fire is not the light that is seen neither is it the unseen light.
The light that is seen is not the candle fire nor is it that which is unseen.
The unseen is not the candle fire nor is it the light that is seen.
The light that is seen is that which, say the candle was in a room, the light is that which illuminates the walls and all that is in the room that becomes visible due to the light from the candle.
The unseen is that which is unseen, we can not see light in the air (usually) between the candle and the walls.
All these three are inseparable and cannot exist without each other. They are, however quite distinguishable from each other.
The light will manifest unless something blocks it out, for example, if a dividing wall is placed between the flame /fire and one who is in the house. Likewise, pollutants in the air may prevent the light from illuminating.
Should one remove the candle...
Read the Book of Revelation.
Bless you ....><>
Someone once explained the 3 in 1like this :
consider a candle (or lamp).
When burning (alight) there are three, namely the flame which may be likened to The LORD GOD, the illuminating light that is which is deemed light which may be likened to The Son Who is Christ and the unseen between the flame (fire) and the light (or evidence of that light, being clearly seen upon all that it sheds its light upon) which may be likened to The Holy Ghost.
All are needful as to remove one (not that it is possible) would render darkness.
The candle fire is not the light that is seen neither is it the unseen light.
The light that is seen is not the candle fire nor is it that which is unseen.
The unseen is not the candle fire nor is it the light that is seen.
The light that is seen is that which, say the candle was in a room, the light is that which illuminates the walls and all that is in the room that becomes visible due to the light from the candle.
The unseen is that which is unseen, we can not see light in the air (usually) between the candle and the walls.
All these three are inseparable and cannot exist without each other. They are, however quite distinguishable from each other.
The light will manifest unless something blocks it out, for example, if a dividing wall is placed between the flame /fire and one who is in the house. Likewise, pollutants in the air may prevent the light from illuminating.
Should one remove the candle...
Read the Book of Revelation.
Bless you ....><>
RJ
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Discussing the Trinity is certainly congruent with this thread, and for me, something that exists doesn't get old.
!It is good we agree and, please, while we are at it, I pray you are not labeling me with something that "comes out of Rome", I no affiliation "with Rome". God Bless
Sorry about that. I can only look at the Trinity concept as something that came out of the Catholic church. They made the doctrine up, it's their invention, they actually got pretty mean with folks that did not buy into it. It's Rome's Doctrine, to say it's someone else doctrine is like copy right theft. I don't know of any other way to look at it. It's certainly not in scripture, and Rome said it's not in scripture. Now if the folks that invented it say it's not in scripture, then it's sort of pointless to keep talking about something that the authors said is not there.
They said though not found in scripture, it's a mystery of the Christian faith..................
I don't have that kind of faith to believe something they say is not found in scripture.
Now other denominations claim there are hints of it found in scriptures, and Rome is wrong. So the ones that invented the doctrine are wrong because there are scriptures that hint to it. That is like saying someone who invented Elves as a fictional race, then someone coming along and saying they can prove elves are real.
i don't mind talking about Religious concepts, but there has to be some point where we focus on more productive things.
New Catholic Encyclopedia", 1967 Page 304
The Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. . . . The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.
The Catholic Encyclopedia", 1912 Page 47
Now if the folks that made the doctrine up says it's not there, then draw your own conclusions and study it out yourself.
I think Rome did a lot of good things, but they also have no bones about adding to scriptures and making up things.
Be blessed in your studies and be settled on what is true and not true.
Blessings.
RJ
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I am not the least bit interested in what the Roman Church has to say about it, but for me, three things:
- You can't argue, or at least I don't see that you can argue, that Jesus is God and God is Jesus; scripturally that is sound to me! It is not as obvious but the Bible supports the Holy Spirit is as much God as he is Jesus.
- I guess I don't believe that it is all that important, not to your salvation anyway, but I certainly wouldn't limit God, who is limitless, and say emphatically that there is no Trinity. I truly believe to limit God is an act of pride! Faith is increased by scripture, but first it is a gift of Grace from God, and by that faith alone is it sufficient to believe in certain things. God said that" my grace is sufficient for you"! I don't believe it is prudent to under estimate him!
Well, certainly Trinity has nothing to do with "Salvation" as we are told to believe in the Father and Son.
To say the Holy Spirit is just as much God as He is Jesus would need clarified. The Holy Spirit does not speak of his own, Was sent by Jesus to connect us to the Father and have access, and the Holy Spirit would never Exalt himself in any way to be equal or of the same level as the Father and son not even testifying of his own.
Not to mention, there is good biblical evidence that Rome added the scripture to be Baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit would never have someone baptized in His name but testified of Jesus and even greater evidence that 1 John 5:7 was added as it came to light in the 1500's and rejected by Erasmus. Jerome certainly did not have this text and it just magically appeared. Of course I am speaking of the Comma Johanneum..
But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].
(Joh 16:13) AMP
So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;
(1Jn 5:7) AMP
By definition of Theos, the Holy Spirit would be classified as god. An immortal deity of uncertain origin. If we say the Holy Spirit is Jesus, then I have many scriptural issues with that, if that is what was meant.
If we want to say the Holy Spirit is lumped into a One God system, then we have to do something with the mentioned personalities of the Holy Spirit... Such as I Wisdom, and the 6 other Spirits attributed to him, all of God the Father.
So to show respect to the Holy Spirit and His vastness being Wisdom, Knowledge, power and so on. Each one is a specific operation and person of the Holy Spirit. So to say there are just 3.............would be disrespectful if we want to lump everything into a One God system.
Anyway, on Brother Keith right now, great stuff concerning Faith. Always good to hear it again and again.
Blessings.
RJ
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I know God is supreme and sovereign but I just can't separate the three. I will know for sure some day, as we all will, but until then, what I believe is good, there is no bad in it and all three are still holy, righteous and blameless and therefore the same to me!...I can live with that...God Bless!
Amen!!! I don't believe we are suppose to believe in our minds to "Separate" the 3. Our minds as we get increased read things with more understanding. For example when I see Christ, it translates into my mind Jesus the Anointed one, His power and anointing to change and help all things.
When I hear the Lord through the Holy Spirit, I don't separate them in my mind. I would say the Lord has said this to me, when in reality, Jesus said it's the Holy Spirit who speaks to us the things he has heard. Now, saying God said, when it was the Holy Spirit revealing to me something show disrespect on my part?
When dealing with a devil though, I remind them that the greater One, the Holy Spirit is far more powerful than you could ever think to be. The name of Jesus, is a name you must bow to and move. So then I think of two.
When Praying, I say Father, you know, now tell me. I only think of One, the Father.
So then, I have to believe that we are not called to be dogmatic, or complicate things. If someone wants to believe in a Trinity concept, then it's fine as long as there is understanding that It's only by the authority and name of Jesus whom all things consist moves things.
I don't see a issue as long as it does not become a stumbling block for people. Many pray, but confused if it's Jesus they pray to, or the father, or they both the same? The Father God, and God rebuke you have the same authority as flee, Devil, in the name of my Lord Jesus?
We have every single right to speak to the Head of the Church, and I can tell you that you can tell the difference from the Father telling you something and the Head of the Church saying something.
Trinity can be fine, as long as it does not hinder someone. Some folks believe in Trinity and have it sorted out, many don't.
I don't think we are suppose to Separate them though, but I don't think it should cause someone to be unsure of who is what and how things work either.
Blessings.
Curtis
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Without the Holy Spirit there would be no such a thing as salvation. He is the once who convicts, and draws people to Jesus.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
All three members of the Godhead play apart in mans salvation. If we take any one of them away, there would be no salvation.
I meant the Roman Catholic Doctrine that changed the Original of 325ad or Rome anything has anything to do with "Salvation" The Trinity doctrine also states that you must believe this creed of the Roman Catholic church or you are unsaved. That is also part of the 3 in 1 doctrine.
I never said the Holy Spirit, the Father who sent his son and Crucified him or the Son has nothing to do with Salvation, I said the Trinity has nothing to do with Salvation.
If your Roman Catholic, then I understand why you think it's important to Salvation, and I have nothing against the Catholic Church, I just don't agree with lots of their Doctrine, or thier idea of being part of the "True" Church.
I was just quoting the Actual Doctrine concerning Salvation.
Curtis
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I was raised a Roman Catholic when I was growing up, even learned to speak some "Latin" as a alter boy, but later got saved in a "Assemblies" of God Church. I only went to the Assemblies of God Church one time, and I have stayed away from the Catholic Church ever sense then.
